The man identified by police in Norway as today's mass killer is Anders Behring Breivik. A collection of his political thought can be found at the link below. (Excerpt translated by Google.) I doubt Breivik's horrific actions today will promote his desired political outcomes, in fact quite the opposite.
document.no
2010-10-29 14:08:40 ... I have worked with the project for 14 years with several projects related to web solutions, have the financial education + two other Bachelor's degrees, earned my first million as an entrepreneur at the age of 24 and have many friends who today are successful entrepreneurs in most industries. Several of my friends are experts on the development of social networking sites (one of them runs Deiligst.no, Norway's probably the most profitable online communities despite the frayed moral concept).
2009-12-03 01:21:04 ... I ran the business a few years while I studied and earned a few million so I could finance a inntektsløs politically active life. I now use these funds to be able to work full time to further develop / promote the Vienna Academy (Vienna school of thought) that Fjordman, Bat Yeor, Spencer + many others have already contributed so much till. The last three years I worked full time with a cultural conservative works that will help to further develop / promote these political doctrines further.
Anyway, I consider the future consolidation of the cultural conservative forces on all seven fronts as the most important in Norway and in all Western European countries. It is essential that we work to ensure that all these 7 fronts using the Vienna school of thought, or at least parts of the grunlag for 20-70 year-struggle that lies in front of us.
The book is called, by the way 2083 and is in English, 1100 pages. [Is this the book? Thanks to a commenter.]
To sums up the Vienna school of thought:
- Cultural Conservatism (anti-multiculturalism)
- [Against] Islamization
- Anti-racist
- anti-authoritarian (resistance to all authoritarian ideologies of hate)
- Pro-Israel/forsvarer of non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries
- Defender of the cultural aspects of Christianity
- Revealing Eurabia project and the Frankfurt School (ny-marxisme/kulturmarxisme/multikulturalisme)
- Is not an economic policy and can collect everything from socialists to capitalists
Frankfurt School (kulturmarxisme) is a very ambitious unofficial ideology (and quite unknown to most) and they have succeeded in most areas (except to smash capitalism, European Christianity and European identity, traditions, culture). Vienna school is more a defense against this where we often use the Marxist 'own creations against them (sexual liberation, feminism, liberalism, anti-racism, anti-autoriære arguments).
Vienna school of thought is far from a complete ideology but consists of principles and ideas that are constantly under development. It is unofficial and does not necessarily ever to be recognized.
For more on Fjordman and what is referred to as the Vienna School, see here and here. Vienna refers to the 1683 Battle of Vienna, which turned back the Ottoman Empire from conquest of Europe.
More discussion here by "Anders B." (Google translation):
Anders Behring wrote 28 January, 2010. 11:52 p.m.
It essential that many people forget is that today's political "main game" is no longer deals with socialism vs. capitalism but rather Nationalism (cultural conservatism) Vs. internationalism (kulturmarxisme / multiculturalism). And it is this struggle that engages the most, according to opinion polls (the fear of further Islamization).
Anders B. wrote 29 January, 2010. 0:14
The tragedy of the whole situation is that to some extent understand this cowardice. Kulturmarxistene have complete control over the media and they will not be merciful to the first future cultural conservative "pioneers" from the Conservatives who publicly flagging opposition to the multiculturalism wonderful view of the world. We are well aware of the very ugly rule techniques they actively use, where their main goal is often attempted character killing of these "dissidents".
Anders B. wrote 30 January, 2010. 2:50 p.m.
I do not think you quite understand what multiculturalism is (or maybe you do not dare to admit it to yourself). Multiculturalism, political doctrines. The ongoing Islamization is only a symptom and not the cause of our growing problems. The main problem for most European nations is that they are suffering an increasing level of cultural, ideological and structural weaknesses.
The main reason for this is the last decades of the implementation of multiculturalism fantastic political doctrines. Multiculturalism is designed to deconstruct European culture, traditions, Christianity, identity, and even nation states.
Multiculturalism stripper's why the cultural defense mechanisms that have resulted that we are so vulnerable. The absence of nationalist (cultural conservatives) political doctrines have ensured this. Political parties that support multiculturalism (anti-nasjonalisme/anti-kulturkonservatisme) is directly responsible for ensuring that we have ended up in this situation. The problem does not stop there, every political party and individuals who actively criticize the multiculturalism wonderful doctrines are labeled and stigmatized by the media and the public.
It is an illusion that multiculturalism is about tolerance. This ideology is primary goal is to deconstruct the majority.
To quote Hylland Eriksen:
"The main task now consists in deconstructing the majority and do it thoroughly so that it can never be called the majority anymore."
Political correctness is synonymous with multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is kulturmarxisme!
You should read more about this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School
You should also go to read the publications of the various political theorists (many of which are demigudene to today's Norwegian Marxists) and you will understand the scope of kulturmarxisme in today's society.
As Keynes wrote:
The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong, are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influence, are usually the slaves of some defunct economist. Madmen in authority, who hear voices in the air, are distilling their frenzy from some academic scribbler of a few years back. I am sure that the power of vested interests is vastly exaggerated compared with the gradual encroachment of ideas.
Who are the scribblers/bloggers influencing Breivik? It seems to me that they include Kevin MacDonald, Fjordman, Frank Salter, and other usual suspects. We should note that although Breivik often mentions the Frankfurt School (high V, low M!) he also declares himself to be anti-racist and pro-Israel. However you can't take his words at face value because at some point he notes that cultural conservatives like himself should emulate the Frankfurters and misrepresent their true beliefs when necessary.
Note added: Breivik's 1000+ page magnum opus is a detailed how-to manual for revolution as well as an ideological tract. For example, it tells you how to get in shape for fighting by, among other things, taking steroids. Yes, the mass killer is a Winstrol roider who "got into fighting shape in only 4 months"!
109 comments:
Never mind, I'm sure the right won't be deterred from bravely telling us about the evil of Islam, multiracial immigration and political correctness.
Did I miss your post on the Virginia Tech shooting?
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The New World Order use mind controlled assassins to further their agenda -Order of of chaos.Google MK Ultra and Monarch mind control.
GD immigrant Islamic terrorists to peaceful Scandinavia!...
Fjordman is a complete loser. Read his comments here or on Mangans. He's just another whiny and insecure white nationalist type. As I've repeatedly said, people like Fjordman or Sailer tend to attract the lunatic fringe.
Big difference. Cho-Seung Hui was basically an isolated incidence of lunacy. This Anders guy, however, was clearly operating within a cultural milieu epitomized by fringe far-right extremists like Sailer or Fjordman. These people represent a broader cultural trend unfolding within many countries in the West. Because a lot of these people are highly tribal and anti-social in nature, the rest of us normal human beings should be extremely wary of them.
The book is called, by the way 2083 and is in English, 1100 pages. [Where is this book?]
I think it's this one: http://www.2shared.com/file/M-s-2fBD/2083-AEuropeanDeclarationofInd.html
Breivik was almost certainly a reader of the blogs you mention. For example, in at least one of his comments online he references a VDARE article he particularly liked.
He's also a tech entrepreneur and (obviously) a socio/psycho-path. In some ways he reminds me a bit of Julian Assange.
Nice smear by association. And it was big of you to concede 1-2% of Sailer's readership are not kooks. Though, I have to ask how you square Sailer having 1-2% Harpending and Cochran type readers if, "a good chunk of his posts are nothing more than griping about Jews or East Asians or ridiculing blacks and Hispanics."
"I'm guessing he did this so that he would have a platform from which to expound his political philosophy."
Yup. This is one of the reasons why I think a culture of excessive political correctness isn't conducive to a healthy society. Although first and foremost I am against political correctness out of the principled belief that it is a form of thought censorship, I'm also highly aware of the practical consequences of PC. It tends to make certain fringe elements feel helpless and without a voice. And when people feel like they have no say it what's going on around them, it often drives them to become angry or even violent and even more malicious than they otherwise would be.
Cho-Seung Hui was basically an isolated incidence of lunacy. This Anders
guy, however, was clearly operating within a cultural milieu epitomized
by fringe far-right extremists like Sailer or Fjordman.
Clearly!!!
As "clearly" demonstrated by the frequency with which white people blow up buildings or engage in mass shootings!!
Why is it that the sort of people who obsess about IQ are themselves always so staggeringly stupid?
The worst thing about these white nationalist sites is that they seem to bring out the worst in Yan Shen. Yan Shen is clearly a tolerant non-extremist who appreciates foreign cultures and looks down on no one, yet unaccountably, inexplicably, when Yan Shen posts on Mangan or Sailer he appears to be some kind of crazed Asian extremist who belittles Western civilization whenever he gets a chance and loudly proclaims the superiority of everything Asian. Somehow, even on Yan Shens blog, a haven of inclusive non-tribalism, every single post has an Asian theme, usually celebrating something Asian.
One of the saddest aspects of these white nationalist xenophobic tribal sites, like Mangans, is their creepy ability to hijack the minds of people like Yan Shen and force them to completely misrepresent their personalities on the web. A person like Yan Shen, whose anti-tribalist credentials are impeccable and who would seem to be the best positioned of anyone here to call out these white nationalist sites for their xenophobia, is being made, clearly against his will, to appear as a fanatical Asian supremacist. Its this bizarre mind-hijacking ability of Mangans and Sailer that worries me the most.
"I doubt Breivik's actions today will promote his desired political outcomes"
Perhaps you should wait until you find out what his desired political outcomes are, and whether his actions are in any way connected to them, before you make that claim. Other people are claiming that Breivik is a Nazi or neo-Nazi, a position completely at odds with positions stated above.
My God this Yan Shen. "US normal human beings" So funny! You so normal. And oh-so-non-tribal. Honestly though you would dvance your Asian Supremacism much better by just shutting up.
As far as guilt by association, look at yourself. I think Yan and the Norwegian shooter would get along great. Unless Yan is some kind of hypocrite. Breivik fights for "A cultural model similar to that of Japan and South Korea - which is not far from cultural conservatism and nationaism at its best."[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQOfH8Dj1mw] You down with nationalism in Asia right Yan? You ain't finna see no mass non-Asian immigration to China, Japan, South Korea? Like you, Breivik also be sycophantically pro-Jewish.
I find these extremist blogs interesting because they are a window into what some people (admitted perhaps an extreme subset, but I don't think it's that small) really think about these controversial issues. I think RKU has made the same observation in the past. I'd actually like to see the comments that Sailer moderates out.
I think you and Yan Shen should declare a truce. You both have interesting things to say but I don't want you guys flaming each other in my comments section.
I've been over this point before, when I contrasted Japanese ethnocentrism with Russian ethnocentrism. Basically, the worst thing that can happen to a foreigner in Japan is that they're refused service at a restaurant, or something along those lines. The worst thing that can happen to a foreigner in Russia is physical violence or even death. White ethnocentrism is by far more likely to result in violence of the kind that Anders perpetrated. Japanese ethnocentrism by contrast is far more benign.
Done. I'm bored with it.
Yes, I'm clearly an extremist when I post on Mangans urging this readers to subscribe to the idea of America as a proposition nation. Totally extremist.
Ah, so. Asian partiality interesting. White ethnic awareness extremist.
Cheng Ting Hsu Scholarship
This scholarship was endowed on behalf of Cheng Ting Hsu by his son Stephen Hsu, Caltech class of 1986. It is to be awarded in accordance with Institute policies to the most qualified international student each year. Preference is to be given to applicants from Chinese-speaking countries: China (including Hong Kong), Taiwan and Singapore.
I think endowing a scholarship geared towards people of Chinese heritage is a little different than engaging in mass murder or verbally denigrating non-whites and suggesting that they need to be dealt with physically. Just a thought.
I once heard someone say that the reason white self-identification is frowned upon in the United States is that far too often white self-identification is inextricably linked with a hatred of the Other. If you read what people routinely post on Mangans or iSteve about Jews, Asians, blacks, Hispanics, I think you'll realize that this criticism is extremely accurate. If whites can learn to weed out the extremists amongst their midst and turn white self-identification mostly into an appreciation for Western culture, entirely decoupled from negativity towards out-groups, then they'll realize that white ethnic awareness can become something respectable. In other words, Steve Hsu endowed a scholarship geared towards people of Chinese descent. He doesn't follow that up with making a career out of ridiculing blacks and Hispanics.
"Extremist" just means far from the center or mainstream. It doesn't mean the ideas are actually wrong. Some people refer to my blog as extremist.
This is very well put. I've been thinking similar things about Sailer's blog. His niche is to cater to those even more to the nativist right than himself, and the result is a mishmash of brilliant insights and pandering to white nationalist types.
"Although in your case it is probably more your obnoxiousness, repetition, poor ability to conceal your strong pro-Asian bias"
Matt. One thing that I've repeatedly stated on Mangans blog is that we should adhere to the notion of America as a proposition nation. For saying that, I've been verbally abused, subjected to racial slurs, and physically threatened with violence. I'm sorry that you feel that people who don't adhere to an all-white notion of the United States are obnoxious.
Well, it's certainly true that all these "extremist" bloggers and their commenters sometimes go around saying totally crazy things. But in their partial defense, I'd argue that lots of the prominent pundits on TV, leading columnists in the elite newspapers, and top government officials sometimes tend to say equally crazy things. Admittedly, crazy in a different way, but just as crazy nonetheless...
Exactly. There's plenty of stuff that can't be expressed by the mainstream media. I want to hear the "extreme" opinions and the arguments supporting those positions.
The probability that all mainstream views at any moment are completely correct is extremely low. Some ideas which are widely accepted today will turn out to be false.
Meh, I think that keeping things like HBD an academic topic is probably a better thing for society overall, since it filters out those who are less able to take the information in a thoughtful way.
Sound reasoning faculties are NOT the norm, and you're not releasing information into a vacuum.
Yan Shen is in my Top 1 of Sailer commenters who might go postal.
"Yan Shen is in my Top 1 of Sailer commenters who might go postal. "
And what might I erupt against? The vast Jewish conspiracy undermining the United States? Sorry, but I'm just not into that kind of thing. :)
Who are the scribblers/bloggers influencing Breivik? We can see explicitly here that they include Kevin Macdonald, Fjordman, Frank Salter, and other usual suspects.
The influence of Fjordman is clear, but on what basis can you say he is influenced by either Kevin MacDonald or Frank Salter? I searched his 1100 page manifesto and their names didn't come up at all. Breivik's writings appear consistently philo-semitic, so I fail to see how one could get the impression that he was influenced by MacDonald at all. My general impression is that Breivik's politics mirror those of Geert Wilders. He is a cultural nationalist because he feels Muslim immigration is a threat to permissive European culture that is tolerant of homosexuals and Jews. In fact in one of his document.no posts (dated 2009-09-14 10:57:20) he says "We must therefore make sure to influence other cultural conservatives to come to our anti-racist/pro-homosexual/pro-Israel line".B.B.
I think Sailer would prefer to not have a comments section at all; he is VERY slow in moderating comments, cutting the amount of comments to a fraction of what it could be (because long back-and-forths are not very feasible with slow moderation). For most of his blog history, he did not allow commenting except by e-mail. It was only when Malcolm Gladwell goaded him for not allowing comments during one of their tiffs that Sailer enabled commenting in his blog.
I could be wrong about this. But his portrayal of the Frankfurt School seems very MacDonald-esque (and it's MacDonald who often cites Salter, IIRC). If you keep searching you'll find a very telling Breivek comment about tactics which suggests (at least to me) that this anti-racist/pro-homosexual/pro-Israel line could be superficial realpolitik and may not reflect his inner views. He also cites a VDARE article at some point. I would be surprised if he had not read MacDonald.
Astonishingly, reading Sailer is like reading the _Decline and Fall of Whites in the 21st Century_. An invaluable piece of "eyewitness" history. That he has chosen to make coin from it, to me, credits his sense as a marketer and his sense of humour.
There are also a number of Jews in the white nationalist movement, and sometimes the rhetoric that they direct against blacks, Hispanics, and Asians is just as bad as that of non-Jewish whites. The comment below seems perfectly in line with the general tenets of white nationalism. In other words, if he considers Jews to be white, he might very well just be against the remaining ethnic groups. After all, Steve Sailer himself is actually half-Jewish.
"I do not think you quite understand what multiculturalism is (or maybe
you do not dare to admit it to yourself). Multiculturalism, political
doctrines. The ongoing Islamization is only a symptom and not the cause
of our growing problems. The main problem for most European nations is
that they are suffering an increasing level of cultural, ideological and
structural weaknesses.
The main reason for this is the last
decades of the implementation of multiculturalism fantastic political
doctrines. Multiculturalism is designed to deconstruct European culture,
traditions, Christianity, identity, and even nation states."
You might be right. I don't think I can peer into the mind of this nutcase with any precision.
Can you point me to non-KMac discussion of the FS that places them at the center of multiculti as a weapon against white / euro-cultural interests? I can find plenty of academic stuff which is against FS, but it doesn't make the broader case that, IIRC, KMac spends a lot of time doing in his book(s).
Can you point me to non-KMac discussion of the FS that places them at
the center of multiculti as a weapon against white / euro-cultural
interests?
Plenty of blogs that take a strictly philo-semitic cultural nationalist position such as Gates of Vienna and Jihad Watch often complain about the Frankfurt School/Cultural Marxism.
Can you point me to non-KMac discussion of the FS that places them at
the center of multiculti as a weapon against white / euro-cultural
interests?
Plenty of blogs that take a strictly philo-semitic cultural nationalist position such as Gates of Vienna and Jihad Watch often complain about the Frankfurt School/Cultural Marxism.
"Pracon was surprised to hear the shooter speaking Norwegian. He was certain a compatriot could never commit such a heinous act. Pracon spoke back. "Do you want to hurt a fellow Norwegian? Please, no. Don't shoot." Miraculously,
the gunman pointed his weapon away. Instead, he aimed for those who
were desperately trying to swim to safety."
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/07/23/norway.survivors/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
It's interesting that in hyper-liberal Norway there still seems to be a kind of residual ethnocentrism- I can't imagine an American saying "Don't hurt a fellow American!" and expecting anything to happen.
re: dissimulation, he may be saying to his fellow conservatives on Document that they need to adopt the VS "anti-racist/pro-homosexual/pro-Israel line" in order to succeed, but not because it is what they really believe. He says they have to fix the ideology properly to succeed, but that is not the same as saying it is the *correct* ideology. He goes through an analysis pointing out that movements that do not embrace this line cannot win broad support. So I am unsure to what extent the line is simply necessary for practical reasons or what he really embraces internally.
In Tiananmen Square the naive student protestors shouted to the soldiers that "Chinese people do not hurt Chinese people" :-(
"Frankfurt School (high V, low M!)"
Dear God. And with an exclamation point too.
My guess is Steve is referring to the sort of people his wife consorts with. That is, he's referring to professing Frankfurters rather than to Habermas, Adorno, Marcuse, or Horckheimer. I wonder if Steve cracked open One Dimensional Man saw no equations and decided it wasn't worth reading and Marcuse was a high V low M type. I wonder if Steve is one of Feyerabend's savages. It's not as if neoclassical economics with all its useless idealizations and mathematics has much of any interest to say.
One man's sociopath is another man's freedom fighter. Dismissing people as crazy means not having to ask why they did what they did or why the satus quo produces such people. The assumption is that the social context is irrelevant and individual crazies will appear sporadically no matter what. This is a status quo supporting assumption/bias. It is an expression of ideology in Marx's sense.
Good for you Steve. "Extremist" is a pejorative. An "extremist" is someone who can be dismissed, someone who needn't be taken seriously, even though all it denotes is someone whose views are uncommon. Such is the power of conformism.
"The probability that all mainstream views at any moment are completely correct"
Most of those views have little to do with facts and much to do with taste. "Arguments supporting" and "correctness" applied to matters of taste is a category mistake.
One might say, "I'm a racist, but I don't claim my racism is scientific. I'm an aesthetic racist" or something like that.
A very good example:
In his The Vanishing American Jew Dershowitz says something like: "The overrepresentation of Jews in certain fields corresponds to the ravings of anti-Semites." "But," Dershowitz says "the anti-Semites must remember that these are individual Jews who disagree and do not conspire."
This is the "arguments supporting"/"correctness" frame.
It doesn't matter Alan! The Chinese in SE Asian, the whites of southern Africa and Latin America, the E Indians of Fiji and E Africa are preventing the self0determination of the natives, and that's a bad thing even if they have the natives' best interests at heart, whichthey surely don't.
You should read Chua's other book, World on Fire.
Well, no one was seriously hurt at Tianamen Square because apparently no one was fired on contrary to the western media claims for the last 22 years but supportive of what the CCP have always maintained. Granted, many people were shot in Beijing during those student protests when they made blockades slowing the military from getting to T Square.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html
"Dismissing people as crazy means not having to ask why they did what they did or why the satus quo produces such people."
Yup I agree. Read my comment below. I think a major part of the problem is that the excessively politically correct culture in the contemporary West has effectively marginalized these kinds of people. I stated that from my interactions with others at these kinds of blogs, I frequently detected a sense of frustration, of marginalization, powerlessness and helplessness. These people often exhibited a mentality of victimhood and felt that they had been wronged by society somehow. This seems to me to fit the profile of the typical anti-social psychopath extremely well. We'll all heard of mass murders who were raging against society because they felt marginalized or not taken seriously and felt powerless. This act perpetrated by Anders was probably a way for him to regain or least he feel like he could regain a certain bit of control over the events unfolding in contemporary Western society which were beyond his means to affect.
William Lind has often promoted the idea that the Frankfurt School is to blame for all sorts of things: http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55833. I don't think the Norwegian nutcase is getting ideas from MacDonald. He seems to have got the Frankfurt idea from blogs like Gates of Vienna.
You remind me of the Virginia Tech killer, resenting those stupid white jocks who get all the girls.
"You remind me of the Virginia Tech killer, resenting those stupid white jocks who get all the girls."
Where did that comment even come from? :) Yes, you've figured me out completely. The reason why I dislike white nationalists on blogs like Sailer and Mangans isn't because they whine and gripe incessantly. It's because they're all uh alpha male studs who land harems of women.
"One of the saddest aspects of these white nationalist xenophobic tribal sites, like Mangans, is their creepy ability to hijack the minds of people like Yan Shen and force them to completely misrepresent their personalities on the web."
So let me get this straight: racist white guys are now to blame for racist yellow guys?
Is there nothing racist white guys can't do? Are they that powerful?
yet unaccountably, inexplicably, when Yan Shen posts on Mangan or Sailer he appears to be some kind of crazed Asian extremist
I notice that he sounds even more like that when he posts here, on a non-white non-nationalist site. Clearly the mind control powers of Mangan and Sailer are even more far reaching then you realized!
He's just another whiny and insecure white nationalist type.
They are so much worse than you whiny and insecure Asian nationalist types.
Call it "tendentious speculative nonsense," but I suspect he might have been joking.
I'm clearly an extremist when I post on Mangans urging his readers to subscribe to the idea of America as a proposition nation.
That's a pretty extreme position all on its own. But it's your orgasmic joy at contemplating the day when whites become a minority in this "proposition nation" which marks you out as just another bigot.
Japanese ethnocentrism by contrast is far more benign.
We can add "history" to the list of things you know nothing about.
I've never read Fawcett Mortenson's posts before, so I apologize if I misread his comment by not appreciating his use of irony.
Actually, mentioning the Virginia Tech rampage raises another issue. It's always seemed to me that there were strong similarities in personality traits between Scandinavians and people from East Asia, especially those from the northern portions of that region. Both groups skew toward being quiet, introverted, diligent, and socially-conformist. And after the V-Tech Massacre, someone noticed that almost all the world's greatest single-killer massacres involved Koreans or Japanese, living either at home or abroad, so when those groups snap, they tend to snap hard. But the Scandinavians were strangely missing from the list. However, now a Norwegian seems to have broken into the top ranks, so given the relative population sizes, the pattern seems to fit.
Neither have I. Just figured it was obvious.
I find it really fascinating what Sailer does. He makes his buck manipulating and stoking extreme right wing paranoia.
His buck? If making a buck was what interested Sailer he could be making many more of them by repeating the liberal line so popular at National Review.
I am wary of when Sailer props up ethnic bloggers like Razib or Hsu.
Because to you, race and ethnicity trump everything. And you're not even pure Asian, are you?
I think it was fairly obvious that I was comparing contemporary Japan to contemporary Russia. Back in the old days people in general tended to behave much more boorishly relative to today, although East Asians were still probably more "well-behaved" on average. So in a sense, societies across the world have undergone a form of moral evolution. But we can still make cross-cultural comparisons across different time periods.
I think endowing a scholarship geared towards people of Chinese heritage
is a little different from engaging in mass murder or verbally
denigrating non-whites and suggesting that they need to be dealt with
physically.
You THINK that, do you?
Why do you think you are intelligent, that's the real question.
Yes, but you have a tendency to infer things which aren't there. Take this, for example:
"I am wary of when Sailer props up ethnic bloggers like Razib or Hsu. Sailer obviously respects the insights of the two, but that's not the same (in my view) as completely respecting them."
Clearly, Sailer is engaging in a clever ruse by linking to Khan and Hsu. Thank God we have a bloodhound like you to sniff racist Sailer's stratagems out.
Yup I plead guilty as charged. As a crazed Asian extremist, I do things like advocating for America the proposition nation, defending Jews from anti-Semitic smears, suggesting that people like Sailer and Mangan are engaged in mean spirited bashing of blacks and Hispanics, defending whites against affirmative action vis a vis blacks and Hispanics(one of the significantly under-appreciated facts is that a lot of Asian Americans are highly critical of AA even when it only negatively impacts whites, there is a strong cultural disposition in East Asian cultures towards meritocracy)...
I thought the typical mass murder was generally speaking white, or is that just one of those urban myths?
Well, I think it's generally true in the U.S., but that's because the population has been so overwhelmingly white throughout during most of its history. But even here I have the impression that long-term serial killers might be much more black than expected, while rampage-killers more Asian. Don't know that I've seen any actual statistics.
However, on a worldwide basis over the last one hundred years I think something like four of the top five slots were held by Koreans or Japanese, though now with the Oslo guy it might become four of the top six. I remember looking at a Wikipedia page on the subject after the V-Tech massacre.
This guy shot up of a bunch of his own people, albeit of a different political persuasion.
And if anything this is a victory for the Left.
If this were a Muslim, the Left would double down on the multicult propaganda, open boarders, garbage. Those of the right should double down on their stances and not let some lone (apparently lone) crazy person have any affect.
"When writing/blogging is your career, you still have to find your niche. Likewise, Sailer has to make some choices based on the the available audience/potential revenue combined with his personal preferences. "
Sailer has admitted to filling this niche because it was one he thought was wide-open to any dilettante since so many scholars were avoiding it.
"Notice how I'm sniped by Yan Shen AND the WNs. It's a mark of pride."
I assume WNs stands for white nationalists? Since you take such pride in it, may I ask who are these white nationalists sniping at you?
"Sailer has admitted to filling this niche because it was one he thought was wide-open to any dilettante since so many scholars were avoiding it."
So apparently Sailer has written about it, and all I did was point out the structure of that audience.
As far as the WNs bit, I think I might have overspoken for this particular thread, but it has definitely happened on the Sailer blog the two or three times I have bothered commenting. I need to just stop using the term "WNs" anyways; it's better to use a description than a label in this case.
Guy, what you do is gripe about Asians, but then try to distance yourself from the WN crowd. However, given that I've agreed to a truce, this is the last that I'll speak of it.
"So apparently Sailer has written about it, and all I did was point out the structure of that audience."
I didn't criticize your earlier post for its points about Sailer's audience. In fact, I admitted that a significant part of Sailer's audience could aptly be characterized in the manner you described them: crude racists.
What I criticized about your post was its ill-spirited speculation of Sailer's motives. You assumed that Sailer must be deliberately reaching out to this racist audience for financial gain and other deeper psychological needs, and that even his apparent appreciation of bloggers like Hsu and Khan must be some elaborate feint at disguising his true motives.
A more economical explanation is that Sailer doesn't give a shit about policing his comments and rarely even bothers to defend himself from vicious attacks at his own blog -- attacks which often come from the crude racists because they are upset about some part of Sailer's analysis they find insufficiently ethnocentric.
If financial motivations aren't a consideration, why does Sailer keep asking for donations? I've also seen Sailer edit/readjust his posts given the way that his readers respond. It would be naive to think that he wasn't catering to his audience.
I would like to address the topic of free will here. Since no sane person can even think about doing such horrific acts, can the shooter be deemed sane, and to what extent is he inculpable as a result of his biological makeup or environmental moldings? Can someone be evil if they are psychologically geared a certain way?
-Shawn
What's interesting is that I remember after the Virginia Tech massacre that most people were surprised that the killer wasn't white, because supposedly white males were most likely to be involved in mass murders, while on average blacks tended to commit more murders per capita. I'd be interested in seeing your statistics though.
I made it pretty clear that I think Sailer thinks that Razib and Hsu offer legit insights. I think I've gone out of my way to point that out, over and over again. Please read both of my posts, where I made it clear that Sailer obviously thinks they have good ideas. You keep setting up this straw man, and I keep having to respond to it.
Your explanation for his writing direction:
(a) he doesn't give a shit
Mine:
(b) he doesn't give a shit...because it wouldn't be beneficial for him to alienate his audience, many of whom fall under the "crude racists" category. This is a conscious decision, and it is evidenced by his edited post on Obama. It went like this: (1) his original post of Obama sounded too laudatory of Obama's intelligence, (2) his readers responded angrily, and (3) he edited his post to make it more critical of Obama and skeptical of Obama's abilities.
By the by, he apparently doesn't give a shit about policing his comments yet needs to keep moderation on....huh? Is there an arbitrary threshold that I'm not aware of that constitutes "giving a shit" about something? Like maybe he gives a shit just enough to not give a shit?
That said, I think I'm descending into the echo-chamber that is blog commenting. I'm done for the day.
Cui Bono?
If he is hiding his real views perhaps maybe he is a Leftist infiltrator. I fight it HIGHLY unlikely but crazier false flag operations have happened historically.
The only benefactors over the medium to long term are the Leftists.
Mass murderers are not the same as serial killers. Mass murderers (sometimes called 'spree killers') generally murder several people during one continuous period. Serial killers, however, have a cooling-off period between their murders.
Examples of infamous American mass murderers are James Huberty, who shot up a southern California McDonald's one afternoon back in the 1980s, killing more than twenty people, and Charles Whitman, the sniper who killed 16 people by shooting them from a tower at the University of Texas at Austin back in the 1960s.
Serial killers are more infamous and numerous: Ted Bundy, Ed Gein, John Wayne Gacy, etc.
This case in Norway is almost certainly that of a mass murderer.
I've never read anything about the ethnic breakdown of mass murderers, but the best analysis of serial killers I've read claims that the black/white breakdown occurs in roughly equal proportions to their numbers in the general population -- for blacks, between 13% and 22%.
"I made it pretty clear that I think Sailer thinks that Razib and Hsu offer legit insights. I think I've gone out of my way to point that out, over and over again."
Yes, but you also made clear you were uncomfortable by Sailer's references to Hsu and Khan, and that you suspected Sailer obviously couldn't respect them. I focused on that peculiar insight in your post.
"By the by, Sailer apparently doesn't give a shit about policing his comments yet needs to keep moderation on....huh? Is there an arbitrary threshold that I'm not aware of that constitutes "giving a shit" about something? Like maybe he gives a shit just enough to not give a shit?"
When I said Sailer doesn't moderate his comments, I simply meant he doesn't appear to actively moderate his comments. I wasn't referring to the type of software he uses.
"Since no sane person..."
How would you know. What is "sane"? Was the guy hearing voices?
"Can someone be evil if they are psychologically geared a certain way?"
What does "psychologically geared" mean?
The justice system needn't concern itself with evil or culpability only with the facts. The insanity defense almost always fails.
"most of us intuitively feel that it's wrong to hold someone accountable if they're mentally unstable. So we invoke some additional limitations such as requiring that a person not have some obvious mental illness, for instance."
Look up insanity defense Yan. Being crazy isn't enough to be deemed innocent by reason of insanity.
*** I'm guessing he did this so that he would have a platform from which to expound his political philosophy. The spotlight will certainly be on him when he goes to trial. But his actions are so horrific that very few people will listen to what he has to say. If he has slightly Aspie tendencies he might not realize this.***
Yeah, talk about an own goal. His actions and name will now be used as a stick to beat people advocating the positions he held.
Predictably, there are hints of it all in Breivik's book.
Section 3.16 PCCTS - Purpose and objectives of re-founding/Our primary objectives (in phase 1 and 2): "Creating awareness of specifically defined topics is the essence of our phase 1 struggle. We will launch information campaigns and create awareness by using any means necessary, including distribution of our messages by using lethal shock attacks against concentrations of class A and B traitors in a pan-European context. The primary goal of the shock attacks is not the immediate physical manifestation of the attack (destroying a few buildings, killing a few hundred traitors) but rather the indirect effects. Shock attacks will have the potency to penetrate the strict censorship regime of the cultural Marxists/multiculturalists."
Here you go - a casual, almost off-hand: "destroying a few buildings, killing a few hundred traitors". Pure evil, no further analysis needed.
Geez, go away for 10 hrs on one of the best Saturdays Portland's had perhaps all summer and come back to 88 comments?
I have no idea why Sailer suffers such fools in his comments. I've asked on occasion and he's never answered to it.
Regardless, it's absolutely smear by association to suggest he and all but 1-2% of his readers are of the same hate-filled, white supremacist ilk as the mouth-breathing trolls that flood his comment stream. On the contrary, I suspect most of the hateful inflammatory comments are from the same 1 or 2 nuts. (Hey, look at this very thread, 88 comments and about a dozen commenters.) I guess I'll appreciate the irony that Yan suggests 1-2% of Sailer's readership is sane and intelligent, when in truth it is maybe 1-2% that are nuts. Further, attempting to draw any conclusion at all from a volume of anonymous internet blog comments is simply ridiculous.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114694/quotes?qt=qt0402661
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Asia compared to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_EuropeAssuming they're accurate that's not a lot for such a large continent. Of course in Asia the Phillipines and Indonesian are covered by a separate category. The Japanese seem more prone to this kind of thing than other nationalities (population adjusted representation seems more than double Chinese) with the Indians in particular being unlikely (on a population) to commit such acts, although the Indians seem to accomplish more murders on their rampages than anyone else. In Europe it seems more like amongst the Italians, Swedes and Swiss in proportion to population - Swiss is likely somewhat explain by their gun laws. The rates seem not dissimilar Asian countries, like murder rates in Asia compared to Europe, as distinguished from assault and violence rates in general, where European ethnics seem to get into more brawls.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacresChina seems to have more attempted school massacres than the US, but with their very large population that seems not that surprising, or than Europe or other NE Asian countries on a per cap basis, although the Chinese don't seem very good at it, injuring many but failing to kill many. Eyeballing, the Germans seem to be the biggest on that kind of thing.
pass Anders off as some sort of relatively "benign" anti-Muslim only kind of guy, akin to a Geert Wilders
He's a mass rampage killer. I'm not really suggesting he's benign, just that he may not have connections to the groups and ideologies you are stating him to. I'm working off of available evidence. If it changes, my opinion will change.
An arbitrary interpretation imposed on Breivik to conceal his loudly proclaimed affinity with the "Eurabia" propagandists - Melanie Phillips, Barbara Amiel, "Bat Ye'or", etc.
***This is someone who clearly understands the gravity of the situation and
who was disturbed enough by what is being done to his country and his
civilization to take matters into his own hands.***
Ironically, this justification of violence sounds similar to that used by Black Liberation intellectual Franz Fanon, which was picked up by the Black Panthers.
"The Wretched of the Earth advocated the violent overthrow of the European and American colonial presence in Third World countries. “Violence,” Fanon wrote, “is
a cleansing force. It frees the native from his inferiority complex and
from his despair and inaction; it makes him fearless and restores his
self-respect.”http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Frantz_Fanon.aspxLeftist philosopher Jean-Paul Sartre seems to endorse this use of violence in his preface to Fanon's book: "the native cures himself of colonial neurosis by thrusting out the
settler through force of arms. When his rage boils over, he rediscovers
his lost innocence and he comes to know himself in that he himself
creates his self."
http://criticaltheory-download-ebooks.blogspot.com/2011/01/preface-to-frantz-fanons-wretched-of.html
"Yes, the mass killer is a Winstrol roider"
Perhaps this is a case of roid rage rather than sociopathy, as if there were such a thing as sociopathy.
Why terrosism? Is killing scores of innocent people more effective than killing politicians, soldiers, or policemen?
Weren't some squahed by tanks? I remember wincing at a picture of a tank "smear".
"You assumed that Sailer must be deliberately reaching out to this racist audience for financial gain"
I had an email exchange many, many years ago with a more naive Sailer. He stated that he was occupying a space in the journalism world that was
unique. And Sailer was and still is clearly unique both in content, delivery, and odd mix of readers. He stated that he did want to
make money and then move on when the rest of the journalism world accepted his ideas or a least did not seem them as extremist.
Apparently Sailer has failed on both ends miserably. He hasn't made enough money to move on. He stated he drives a 15 year old Corolla or something like that.
And the MSM sees Sailer as third rail, not just outcast.
I'm afraid with age and changing culture, Sailer really has no good options left. His blog has become his only outlet. His followers an outdated autistic gang of sorts,
who don't have charitable income. And easy pickings for the Yan Shens, mainstreamed Jews of the US. Also completely ignored by gen Y.
Thanks for the Lind reference. I wasn't familiar with his stuff -- now it looks like KMac is channeling Lind but with a more anti-semitic perspective. Sometimes the trail of obscure scribblers extends far into the past ...
On the other hand he has sections in the manifesto about preservation of Nordic genes, classification of mixed race people, etc. Was he trying to convince Stormfronters that they were fundamentally wrong, or that they needed to tweak the (public face of their) ideology to have broader appeal? I have to say he seems pretty open in his manifesto -- see the personal comments about his friends and family. So I'd guess he is actually stating his real beliefs throughout.
In parts of his manifesto he expresses some racialist ideas, such as worrying about the demographic decline of Indigenous Europeans, but on the other hand he also emphasizes that he is not a racist, that he has had and still does have non-European friends.
"that he has had and still does have non-European friends."
Ah of course. The "some of my best friends are black" defense. :)
Yes, the "some of my best friends are black" line has become a much ridiculed trope that people of the center-right have deployed as defense against charges of racism. Your joke about Hitler aside though, no serious far-right extremist would feel a need to defend himself against charges of racism by bragging about being friends with non-whites.
BTW, the attacks were made on the anniversary of the King David Hotel bombing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing), but it's probably a coincidence.
What's amazing is that none of the typical HBD sites like Mangans or iSteve has blogged about this. I wonder why? :) Of course, if say, an Islamic fundamentalist had carried out these atrocious acts, I'm sure we would've read about it on the HBD blogs the moment the event unfolded.
I always thought Whites were more like Indians (from the country) than E. Asians. I do agree that Scandinavians are more similar to E. Asians than other White groups because of the characteristics you mention. - Shawn
Meanwhile in Texas :-( :
A man opened fire at a Texas roller skating rink during a birthday party for one of his children, killing his estranged wife and four of her family members before turning the gun on himself, police said Sunday.Tan Do, 35, and Trini Do, 29, were hosting the party at the Roller World Skating Rink in the Dallas suburb of Grand Prairie, Texas, on Saturday for one of their two children, Grand Prairie police said in a statement."The couple had been involved in ongoing marital problems and it is believed that this led to the shooting," police said. "Trini Do was among the deceased."http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/07/24/texas.shooting/
In fact, the very first essay in Breivik's manifesto, called Introduction - What is “Political Correctness”? was written by William Lind.
Yan,
Sailer has a post up.
http://isteve.blogspot.com/2011/07/norway.html
Japanese are ingrained to keep a lot bottled up. It comes out when they're drunk or otherwise emboldened. An acquaintance of mine was threatened in Tokyo for being a foreigner with a Japanese (-American) wife, and the even police wouldn't help. The worst that happened to me is as you suggest: taxis driving away etc.
Predictably, a good number of the comments on Sailer posts were akin to, "Hey y'all, he may have killed a lot of people, but he's a testament to the ruthless efficiency of Northern Europeans! We can do anything we put our minds too! High fives all around!"
Of course Keynes, being an economist and in some measure a political philosopher, would like to believe that "the world is ruled by little else" than the ideas of economists and political philosophers...
Mencius has quoted some interesting background from Breivik's history. Apparently he was in the "hip hop movement" and a graffiti artist in his teens:
Since I was 12 years old I was into the hip-hop movement. For several years I was one of the most notable "hip-hop‘ers" from Oslo‘s West side. It was a lot easier to "gain respect and credibility" in Oslo West because of the demographic factors. Oslo West was the "privileged and predominantly native side" of Oslo with very few immigrants in contrast to the East side which was less peaceful. Graffiti and break dance was an important part of our life at that point. Around 1993 and 1994, at 15, I was the most active tagger (graffiti artist) in Oslo as several people in the old school hip-hop community can attest to...
We used to hang out with GSV crew, or B-Gjengen as they are popularly called today, a Muslim Pakistani gang, quite violent even back then. "Gang alliances" was a part of our everyday life at that point and assured that you avoided threats and harassment. Alliances with the right people guaranteed safe passage everywhere without the risk of being subdued and robbed (Jizya), beaten or harassed. We had close ties with B-Gjengen (B-Gang) and A-Gjengen (A-Gang), both Muslim Pakistani gangs through my best friend Arsalan who was also a Pakistani. Even at that time, the Muslim gangs were very dominating in Oslo East and in inner city Oslo. They even arranged "raids" in Oslo West occasionally, subduing the native youths (kuffars) and collecting Jizya from them (in the form of cell phones, cash, sunglasses etc.). I remember they systematically harassed, robbed and beat ethnic Norwegian youngsters who were unfortunate enough to not have the right affiliations. Muslim youths called the ethnic Norwegians "poteter" (potatoes, a derogatory term used by Muslims to describe ethnic Norwegians). These people occasionally raped the so called "potato whores." ..
I have personally heard of and witnessed hundreds of Jihadi-racist attacks, more than 90% of them aimed at helpless Norwegian youth (who themselves are brought up to be "suicidally" tolerant and therefore are completely unprepared mentally for attacks such as these). This happens while the Marxist networks in the hiphop movement and the cultural establishment silently and indirectly condone it. There is absolutely no political will to ensure that justice is served on behalf of these victims. I remember at one point thinking: "This system makes me sick"."
http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2011/07/indisputable-humanity-of-anders-behring.html
To be honest Steve, I would like you to explain your comment too. I mean, you have to consider Habermas and Marcuse in their time frame. I read a bit about these guys when we learned about them in secondary education (I guess this is high school or something like that).
Why are you dismissing this as high V low M? It seems that you are framing the world in terms of V and M lately...
Furthermore:
Good people always have high M, the rest are wacks. Moreover, I know some great mathematicians who score well on the V scale (Lenstra comes to mind), conversely I know philosophers, political scientists and economists (with high M too), it is not because someone writes about the (social) world, that he should be considered low M right. Gelman writes all the time about politics, voting etc. he seems to be verbal strong enough, but he is high M too, no?
Just some thoughts and questions, love your blog though!
If this is true, it's disgusting behavior on behalf of the Muslim immigrants. I have no respect for immigrants who don't respect the host country/people.
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