tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post8932374747153326307..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: The NormaliensSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger38125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-1609673987633330922012-10-23T18:04:24.596-04:002012-10-23T18:04:24.596-04:00You're right. To say "objective and opaqu...You're right. To say "objective and opaque" is like saying "scrofulous and ugly".MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-66290497235667541312012-10-17T02:04:15.079-04:002012-10-17T02:04:15.079-04:00No problem, I did not take it that you implied any...No problem, I did not take it that you implied anything, I just wanted to be clear with my statements. Don't get me wrong, MIT is pretty ubergeeky (speaking as a geek, many were less geeky than me, some more so). It's just that geeks are a more diverse and interesting group than many realize.Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-60082106186701768952012-10-17T01:59:13.558-04:002012-10-17T01:59:13.558-04:00I think that subjectivity implies a certain opaque...I think that subjectivity implies a certain opaqueness by definition because if it could be done by a transparent algorithm, then it wouldn't be subjective. Subjectivity carries a certain risk, the question is whether the rewards from this subjectivity are worth the risk.asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-12425099933336474082012-10-17T01:53:56.404-04:002012-10-17T01:53:56.404-04:00It does seem like we see things similarly. Occasio...It does seem like we see things similarly. Occasionally, I wonder how the admissions process can better identify people like that and sometimes I feel that the folks at Cambridge and Oxford that used a combination of entrance exams, recommendation letters and personal interviews used to do a good job in admitting a wide variety of interesting students(along with a lot of legacy types of students)asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-68949034132734584902012-10-17T00:57:13.808-04:002012-10-17T00:57:13.808-04:00On the SAT I took both, but I sat the recentered j...On the SAT I took both, but I sat the recentered just to compete with my brother. I haven't looked at the numbers.<br /><br />I was/am a white gentile male with well educated but divorced and not so well<br /> off parents. My dad graduated Harvard in '66, but if there is an <br />opposite of Amy Chua, my parents were it.<br /><br />I can't claim to be a "victim". I think I MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-53825004786108062412012-10-17T00:46:03.767-04:002012-10-17T00:46:03.767-04:00It would be a good thing if it were possibefor adm...It would be a good thing if it were possibefor admissions to do a better job. I don't think they can. There is also the down-side that "corrections" for test performance are subjective and opaque.MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-29118677167552876942012-10-16T21:45:19.336-04:002012-10-16T21:45:19.336-04:00That is unfortunate. I now understand some of you...That is unfortunate. I now understand some of your comments better. Did you take the SAT pre or post 1995 recentering? After the recentering I think the mean for schools like MIT and Caltech became less meaningful because of the lack of resolution at the high end (do they make the median numbers available?). I would think the recentering made it harder to reliably identify top individuals (Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-1392482954685460302012-10-16T21:07:16.238-04:002012-10-16T21:07:16.238-04:00All of my test scores SAT, ACT, CBATs (I left my s...All of my test scores SAT, ACT, CBATs (I left my shit hole high school for the local state u before sitting AP tests) were significantly higher than the mean for admits to MIT and SAT. MIT granted an interview, CalTech didn't, both denied admission.<br /><br />I suspect my situation is common, and I know that in most countries it would be uncommon or simply wouldn't exist.MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-89154708551775134452012-10-16T21:01:30.292-04:002012-10-16T21:01:30.292-04:00They are admitting students who are intellectually...They are admitting students who are intellectually inferior to some students who aren't admitted, yes, but they may not think they are doing this. Even at these schools there are other considerations, and admissions people trust their own subjective judgement over mere test scores.MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-13757505307549935632012-10-16T20:56:15.173-04:002012-10-16T20:56:15.173-04:00So the "performance" part is totally up ...So the "performance" part is totally up to the teacher? If you teacher dislikes you too bad? But the exam is standardized and graded by "censors"?<br /><br />The grades at uni are the same or are determined in as many ways as there are professors?<br /><br />Is it like this:<br /><br />As many as three midterms and one final in a semester, some may be take home, all are MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-82697476851843541362012-10-16T20:04:12.846-04:002012-10-16T20:04:12.846-04:00HF which you mentioned earlier is one of the four ...HF which you mentioned earlier is one of the four types of student-exams (studentereksamen) aka. those that count as gymnasium level. HF is a 2-year version. The others are stx (normal), htx (technical focused), hhx (business focused). They are all 3-years.<br /><br />I don't think we see as much grade inflation as you do. I used to follow the statistics (they are publicly available), and Emil Ole William Kirkegaardnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-81219618570487551202012-10-16T20:02:01.283-04:002012-10-16T20:02:01.283-04:00Probably a combination of high IQ, high IQ family ...Probably a combination of high IQ, high IQ family and networks, and perhaps neurological conditions like aspergers which might facilitate creativity in high IQ individuals . I don't think their mean IQ of 110 alone is sufficient to explain it,otherwise where are are all the Hong Kongoid Nobel prize winners?Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-23297792674194469542012-10-16T20:01:22.489-04:002012-10-16T20:01:22.489-04:00It sounds like we see things similarly. Thanks fo...It sounds like we see things similarly. Thanks for the Bill Pfann anecdote (I hope we become better able to identify people like that. I wonder if work like Steve's BGI study can help.). The Precision Recall curve analogy is intriguing. I have to think about it more, but it sounds like a useful way to think about this.<br /><br /><br />Regarding MIT and athletes I should be clear that I Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-19301018992757405772012-10-16T20:01:16.006-04:002012-10-16T20:01:16.006-04:00Thanks. I like the idea of having an extended rel...Thanks. I like the idea of having an extended relationship with a main teacher (in rare cases I have heard of US schools keeping teacher/class together for multiple years). I would worry that the influence of those teachers on the students future could be very high and hope they are selected carefully and that an effort is made to ensure teacher/student compatibility.Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-28281385452828041692012-10-16T20:00:53.322-04:002012-10-16T20:00:53.322-04:00Same main teacher for the last few years, I don...Same main teacher for the last few years, I don't really recall if I had the same main teacher before 7th grade tho.<br /><br /><br />Re: grade inflation, I do recall two teachers, smartest I encountered in the gymnasium (high biology and high chemistry), who took comedic pleasure in generally giving grades lower than average, and making comedic displays of ignoring dramatic female ploys for LaurentMelchiorTelliernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-86486337240644944052012-10-16T20:00:43.206-04:002012-10-16T20:00:43.206-04:00I agree that the admission results are not a stric...I agree that the admission results are not a strict linear ordering of test scores. In my opinion, that is a good thing because I doubt that intellectual capabilities can be linearly ordered with complete certainty. As an example here is a quote from the famous article by Richard hamming:"In mathematics, theoretical physics, astrophysics, typically brains correlates to a great extent with asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-65652480661414533312012-10-16T20:00:35.506-04:002012-10-16T20:00:35.506-04:00I'm not @MtMoru:disqus , but I think the answe...I'm not @MtMoru:disqus , but I think the answers to your two questions are different. For "do they consider any criteria more important than intellectual achievement?", I would say no. But for your last question I think the answer is yes (I would speculate more so for MIT than Caltech, but would be interested in other opinions). "Intellectually inferior" is hard to Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-38683645550286394612012-10-16T20:00:29.344-04:002012-10-16T20:00:29.344-04:00Thanks for the additional details. Two questions ...Thanks for the additional details. Two questions if you don't mind. First, is a student's "main teacher" only for 9th grade (or different for each grade) or is this association for more than one grade? Second, do you see the same tendency towards grade inflation that I believe we do in the US (another way of asking this would be "what is the typical grade distribution&Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-89881377517873395142012-10-16T19:54:40.460-04:002012-10-16T19:54:40.460-04:00The gymnasium exams are objective, in the sense th...The gymnasium exams are objective, in the sense that everyone takes the same exams, which are graded by censors unaffiliated with the particular gymnasium. Similar to the Chinese 中考 and 高考, but nationally (rather than provincially) standardized, an exam for each subject.<br /><br /><br />After the 9th grade, some people go straight to gymnasium. And some, usually based on whether they've beenLaurentMelchiorTelliernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-6367138907733946632012-10-16T19:54:19.522-04:002012-10-16T19:54:19.522-04:00Are you suggesting that Caltech and MIT are admitt...Are you suggesting that Caltech and MIT are admitting students whom they know are intellectually inferior to other applicants?asnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-14704886776087377322012-10-16T19:54:18.283-04:002012-10-16T19:54:18.283-04:00The US is schizophrenic when it comes to what dete...The US is schizophrenic when it comes to what determines success, innate ability or striving, ignoring that it depends on what the society values. The result is an absurdly competitive society where the winners feel no obligation to the losers. The American ethos: "Play the game. It's the best of all possible games. Because it is a game there will be winners and losers. BUT if you'veMtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-49769843331630565872012-10-16T19:54:12.751-04:002012-10-16T19:54:12.751-04:00MIT has claimed that the SAT is the best predictor...MIT has claimed that the SAT is the best predictor of performance. The "performers" like science contest winners, chess prodigies, or editors of the school newspaper, or IMO participants I believe are still a tiny percentage at even the most elite schools.<br /><br />It bears repeating that the distinction between performance on objective standardized college entrance exams and MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72446585082977978852012-10-16T19:54:11.500-04:002012-10-16T19:54:11.500-04:00Aren't/weren't a lot of the po-mo bullshit...Aren't/weren't a lot of the po-mo bullshit artists Normaliens?<br /><br />Regarding Sartre, "When the French think they think in German."MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-48958643177802727292012-10-16T19:54:08.861-04:002012-10-16T19:54:08.861-04:00Sounds just like the Canadian system or the US sys...Sounds just like the Canadian system or the US system without the aptitude tests unless the grading scheme is objective so that grades mean the nearly the same thing across gymnasie. But what is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higher_Preparatory_Examination_%28HF%29, the Higher Preparatory Examination? <br /><br />In the US the quality of schools is extremely uneven and grades are assigned in as MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-89144568490872149982012-10-15T01:20:05.678-04:002012-10-15T01:20:05.678-04:00Internal to the gymnasie, and using an average of ...Internal to the gymnasie, and using an average of exam grades and performance grades, resulting in an average over a large number of grades (a number on the order of your 40). <br /><br /><br />I believe there has recently been a reform such that GPA is (to a lesser degree) affected by the second, as well as the third and last year of gymnasie. But for some time, it has been only the last of 3 LaurentMelchiorTelliernoreply@blogger.com