tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post7264292634579985000..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: Beyond Race in Affirmative ActionSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-21264991980734140442012-02-28T07:20:25.199-05:002012-02-28T07:20:25.199-05:00This is not the 2009 data, but the Asians have hig...This is not the 2009 data, but the Asians have higher variation in the 2006 data, slightly more so in terms of overrepresentation at the low end.<br /><br />http://www.educationcounts.govt.nz/publications/series/2543/pisa_2006/29012/7<br /><br />That may be from immigration effects undersampling the middle range of the parent Asian populations though (and/or oversampling the high end), rather Matthew Carnegienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-32053646540653825002012-02-26T22:37:49.979-05:002012-02-26T22:37:49.979-05:00I am almost certain Asian means south, east, or so...I am almost certain Asian means south, east, or south-east Asian. It certainly doesn’t include Pacific Islanders as it does in the US. <br /><br />Here is a 2006 Asian ethnicity breakdown:<br /><br />Chinese: 147,570<br />Indian (really all Indian sub-continentals): 104,583<br />Korean: 30,792<br />Filipino: 16,938<br />Japanese: 11,907<br />Sri Lankan: 8,313<br />Combodian: 6,915<br />Thai: Plencknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72580636229414473262012-02-26T20:04:09.180-05:002012-02-26T20:04:09.180-05:00 Interesting. One possible explanation for the ove... Interesting. One possible explanation for the over-representation of Asians in New Zealand at the elite levels of academics (see the first YouTube video linked to above) and the low average Asian scores is that the Asian category lumps together East Asians with other racial groups. Does the Asian distribution have a higher SD than the white distribution?Yan Shenhttp://profiles.google.com/yanshen71786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-81889659062228515142012-02-26T19:50:43.273-05:002012-02-26T19:50:43.273-05:00Most recent New Zealand PISA scores.The order is s...Most recent New Zealand PISA scores.The order is science, reading, maths.White: 555, 541, 537Asian: 530, 522, 529Plencknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-66664313978003016202012-02-26T19:34:58.117-05:002012-02-26T19:34:58.117-05:00I'm at work so can't view those youtube cl...I'm at work so can't view those youtube clips. Not as far as I'm aware for asians who are NZ citizens. I know that there are higher entry criteria for international students (who generally come from Asia). Otherwise admissions are simply on the basis of grades (with quotas for Maori, Pacific Island, and some mature applicants). <br /><br />Off the top of my head the only place that bottinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-30885563554467798072012-02-26T00:42:24.945-05:002012-02-26T00:42:24.945-05:00 Is there an analogous situation in New Zealand wh... Is there an analogous situation in New Zealand when it comes to Asians and academic discrimination?<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIkvuDABvw8Yan Shenhttp://profiles.google.com/yanshen71786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-41108767280910775522012-02-24T10:15:17.292-05:002012-02-24T10:15:17.292-05:00Gabriel, the problem with your argument is that &q...Gabriel, the problem with your argument is that "justice" is fraught with peril. Often, political types who cannot make a logical, objective case for their argument reach for the reductionist hammer of "justice" or "fairness." Right now, our President is campaigning on a record that no one can honestly point to as being terrifically successful, and on proposals dwbuddhttp://twitter.com/dwbuddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72551449969393293262012-02-23T23:47:40.886-05:002012-02-23T23:47:40.886-05:00Can't really see what difference Lynn or Jense...Can't really see what difference Lynn or Jensen or Francis Galton himself would make. Anyone who has two brain cells knows perfectly well that racial AA admits large numbers of less academically-able (i.e. "smart") students. That's the whole *reason* for racial AA. And anyone honest would admit that.<br /><br />Obviously, the requirement of brain cells and honesty probably RKU1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-10028419970927740432012-02-23T22:10:46.042-05:002012-02-23T22:10:46.042-05:00***Frankly, I really can't imagine suffering t...***Frankly, I really can't imagine suffering through a comment-thread debate about racial AA. I've been closely following the issue for something like thirty-five years, and I don't think I've seen more than two or three original points made during that entire period.***<br /><br />I agree, it is a painful exercise. I'm impressed Haney-Lopez has ventured into his own commentsbottinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-32285956400532182892012-02-23T21:56:05.614-05:002012-02-23T21:56:05.614-05:00Never heard of him. Presumably, he's some sor...Never heard of him. Presumably, he's some sort of (half-?)Hispanic-activist type. Looks like he got an endowment from that black guy on Wall Street who's being sued by the Lousiana pension fund for defrauding them of hundreds of millions of dollars I think.<br /><br />Frankly, I really can't imagine suffering through a comment-thread debate about racial AA. I've been closely RKU1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-15358559394137669982012-02-23T21:32:29.909-05:002012-02-23T21:32:29.909-05:00Is Ian Haney-Lopez a Hispanic writer? He is coming...Is Ian Haney-Lopez a Hispanic writer? He is coming out with some remarkable bullsh1t in his comments thread (Roger Clegg actually pops up there to debate him too):<br /><br />"Discrimination has two meanings: differentiation and mistreatment. Affirmative action certainly involves differentiation on the basis of race. But it hardly constitutes mistreatment, at least of the sort that has bottinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-19632904660716229272012-02-23T21:02:42.289-05:002012-02-23T21:02:42.289-05:00Any discussion on affirmative action that neglects...Any discussion on affirmative action that neglects the Espenshade and Chung 2005 paper is incomplete, the one that observed that Asians were at the equivalent of an automatic 50 point disadvantage on the SATs vs. whites in college admissions, and 280 points vs. blacks. Also, in the absence of affirmative action, 4/5 of spots occupied by African Americans at top schools would have been supplanted Miley Cyraxnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-3077943555466373622012-02-23T20:54:21.340-05:002012-02-23T20:54:21.340-05:00Not to heap too much scorn on my home country...bu...Not to heap too much scorn on my home country...but where else on this Earth except America would rhetoric to the effect of "people only get high scores on standardized tests because they study more" be considered a valid argument against a meritocratic model?<br /><br />As if all (or even most) URM applicants are underprivileged. As if prep courses actually result in huge gains for theGuy_Brodudenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-16506286960338153932012-02-23T20:34:24.107-05:002012-02-23T20:34:24.107-05:00Well, since no one followed up on my remark (which...Well, since no one followed up on my remark (which was actually half-facetious), I suppose I must...<br /><br />The obvious reason that Gregory wasn't including in the discussion mix was that he's been a strong public critic of racial AA programs in the past, and presumably the NYT people felt that such criticism, especially coming from the "representative" of America's RKU1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-47130691181852803512012-02-23T18:50:50.006-05:002012-02-23T18:50:50.006-05:00SES is irrelevant wrt the validity of the SAT. Som...SES is irrelevant wrt the validity of the SAT. Some SAT critics just cannot comprehend the concept of validity.<br /><br /> But here is evidence showing other factors in play besides SES.<br /><br />http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/testing.htm#APPENDIX BRobert Buttonshttp://www.facebook.com/people/Robert-Buttons/100003246187732noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-18090061899852132152012-02-23T16:52:26.656-05:002012-02-23T16:52:26.656-05:00Ok, will do.Ok, will do.bottinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-7604323311559360742012-02-23T16:35:13.358-05:002012-02-23T16:35:13.358-05:00Don't hold your breath.Don't hold your breath.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-18343206520245199262012-02-23T16:29:54.852-05:002012-02-23T16:29:54.852-05:00Wow. Thanks for the link. It seems like those re...Wow. Thanks for the link. It seems like those results should change the conversation a bit ;-)Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-6441138721924130752012-02-23T16:20:56.953-05:002012-02-23T16:20:56.953-05:00Maybe you can post the URM graduation rates since ...Maybe you can post the URM graduation rates since prop 209 (see my other comment). I think phrasing the argument in terms of SAT as predictor of college performance is too confusing for most readers -- just directly stating the mismatch hypothesis (URMs get better outcomes when matched in ability to the rest of the campus) and supporting data would be better.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-39573084596605712732012-02-23T16:12:49.567-05:002012-02-23T16:12:49.567-05:00Some comments seem to suggest that SAT is just a r...Some comments seem to suggest that SAT is just a reflection of SES, so I've tried to post some comments in response referring to the research below. Hopefully they get published :)<br /><br />http://infoproc.blogspot.co.nz/2010/03/ses-and-iq.htmlbottinoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-44619424738746251602012-02-23T16:10:22.816-05:002012-02-23T16:10:22.816-05:00Steve, the thing is, you state that the meritocrac...Steve, the thing is, you state that the meritocracy is the ideal...but you never provide any reasons why this is so. From a justice standpoint, the people you suggest merit admission into the best schools in most cases don't deserve that position: ability is a function of genes, environment, and work ethic/ambition. The first two are outside of an individual's control. Arguably work ethicGabriel_Betteredgenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-2399290800853756602012-02-23T15:44:32.223-05:002012-02-23T15:44:32.223-05:00Unfortunately I was under time pressure when prepa...Unfortunately I was under time pressure when preparing the op-ed, otherwise I could have argued from this perspective. Apparently, it's a slam dunk:<br /><br />"4) Graduation trends. URM graduation rates have improved sharply since Prop 209 went into effect. For the six cohorts of black freshmen who started at UC campuses before Prop 209 went into effect (the matriculating years of steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-83910622187709324992012-02-23T15:32:36.449-05:002012-02-23T15:32:36.449-05:00Are the UC URM graduation rates you reference abso...Are the UC URM graduation rates you reference absolute numbers or percentage of URM admittees? If the former, that argument is a slam dunk. If the latter, I think you would get some push back (although it's still a pretty good argument IMHO). I think it would be beneficial to redirect the conversation into maximizing the success URMs have in the education system as a whole (back to your Richard Seiternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-20188784435640695662012-02-23T15:32:14.695-05:002012-02-23T15:32:14.695-05:00Yes, arguments about merit really aren't quite...Yes, arguments about merit really aren't quite right if they are put in moral terms. Merit policies don't make sense because they are moral, they make sense because they promote efficiency and other desirable things. To me this suggests the whole issue is somewhat more complicated than Steve wants to make it. Meritocratic admissions policies tend to produce certain kinds of goods, but nontractalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-33271297172631297462012-02-23T14:40:04.047-05:002012-02-23T14:40:04.047-05:00I don't need dramatic evidence(I'm 100% on...I don't need dramatic evidence(I'm 100% on your side), but I think those talking about academic mismatch need to do a better job quantifying the variance in "intellectual ability" between different ethnic groups on various campuses. Campuses need to judged(and ranked) against one another by how cross-racially equitable they are with regard to "intellectual ability". ItSoren Kayhttp://www.facebook.com/people/Soren-Kay/100001270456452noreply@blogger.com