tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post4511792876118616211..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: Jensen on g and geniusSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger146125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-21139045357676551032012-05-24T14:46:00.067-04:002012-05-24T14:46:00.067-04:00Iamexpert,
Since it was a part of our discussion,...Iamexpert,<br /><br />Since it was a part of our discussion, I thought you might like to read this: <a href="http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/05/22/Exclusive-The-Vetting-Obama-Wrong-on-Columbia-Admission-Transfer-Class-Had-Low-SAT-Scores-Grades" rel="nofollow">Did Obama have lower SAT scores than George W. Bush?</a><br /><br /><i>"Only 450 students applied to transfer to ColumbiaPincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-82801731955552254392012-05-15T01:18:30.286-04:002012-05-15T01:18:30.286-04:00Your point about SAT subject tests is well taken. ...Your point about SAT subject tests is well taken. But you have to remember that even if Harvard did a perfect job screening for g (which it doesn't), IQ tests don't perfectly measure g, so people with an extreme level of g inevitably regress to the mean on IQ tests simply because IQ tests include non-g variance, and the shorter the IQ test, the higher the standard error. I think that&#Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-23416291302106258742012-05-15T00:48:13.416-04:002012-05-15T00:48:13.416-04:00Many of these qualities (voice tone, body language...<i>Many of these qualities (voice tone, body language, facial <br />expressions, etc.) are like singing, dancing, or playing a sport. They <br />are natural physical abilities that may require some training, but they <br />aren't mental tasks that correlate with g. The fact that Oprah is good at them doesn't tell us anything about her intellectual abilities.</i><br /><br />I think beingIamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-19057528355913680332012-05-13T22:28:06.246-04:002012-05-13T22:28:06.246-04:00See reply above.See reply above.Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-77895866156465291062012-05-13T22:25:23.465-04:002012-05-13T22:25:23.465-04:00Iamexpert and Black Rose (discussion continued fro...Iamexpert and Black Rose (discussion continued from below),<br /><br /><i>"Well to me, independent measures of g are measures of g that only correlate with each other because they all measure g. No other reason. The SAT, grades, SAT subject tests and even letters of recommendation all correlate with each other, but not just because they all measure g, but also because they all measure verbalPincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-86411419391807182162012-05-13T21:43:49.656-04:002012-05-13T21:43:49.656-04:00My response is above.My response is above.Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-77877798320392018202012-05-13T12:28:20.424-04:002012-05-13T12:28:20.424-04:00Spearman's law of diminishing returns is great...Spearman's law of diminishing returns is greatly exaggerated. Most of the studies documenting it seem highly flawed.Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-37582266799938685112012-05-12T09:52:58.069-04:002012-05-12T09:52:58.069-04:00Well to me, independent measures of g are measures...Well to me, independent measures of g are measures of g that only correlate with each other because they all measure g. No other reason. The SAT, grades, SAT subject tests and even letters of recommendation all correlate with each other, but not just because they all measure g, but also because they all measure verbal and math skills. Thus these are not independent measures of g. Truly Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-22553408306062503132012-05-12T05:45:25.750-04:002012-05-12T05:45:25.750-04:00 Well “independent” is the key word. SAT scores c... <i>Well “independent” is the key word. SAT scores correlate with g because<br /> the verbal and math skills they measure correlate with g. School <br />grades also measure verbal and math skills so they correlate with g for <br />the same reason, so they’re not really an independent confirmation of g.</i><br /><br />I think the word "independent" in this context means "BlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-39003541719980474832012-05-12T02:00:46.176-04:002012-05-12T02:00:46.176-04:00 You answered my objection adequately. Although th... You answered my objection adequately. Although the SAT subject tests probably aren't as g-loaded as the SAT, but as achievement tests, they more g-loaded than grades and it also requires conscientiousness to master the concrete subject material. Your response gave me some appreciation of the value of the SAT subject tests as psychometric instruments, and help me understand why Charles MurrayBlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-88904137611471781622012-05-12T00:35:31.790-04:002012-05-12T00:35:31.790-04:00Black Rose,
"I don't think high school g...Black Rose,<br /><br /><i>"I don't think high school grades are that g-loaded in a high g population, nor are they are measure of conscientiousness due to the low ceiling of grades."</i>Your point might be valid if the level of classes by each applicant weren't also taken into consideration by the admissions committee when comparing GPA. Even an applicant who wants to major in Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-31071301060345018512012-05-11T22:23:21.739-04:002012-05-11T22:23:21.739-04:00
"The SAT scores and school grades/recommend... <i><br />"The SAT scores and school grades/recommendations Harvard uses both <br />heavily reflect verbal and math skills. So grades are probably not <br />really adding any new information about g that the SAT does not <br />provide."<br /><br />Another independent confirmation of high g in an applicant makes <br />it less likely you are picking them on the basis of an outlier test, BlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-20841556144094955642012-05-11T20:19:27.554-04:002012-05-11T20:19:27.554-04:00Yan any group or individual that is disproportiona...Yan any group or individual that is disproportionately successful is going to get relentlessly bashed, especially in the Internet age where any anonymous poster can say anything about anyone without being held accountable. This is because success (money, power, status, and prestige etc) is largely a zero sum games so those who have a lot of it (whether they deserve it or not) devalue everyone Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-7748611449626642482012-05-09T12:34:26.829-04:002012-05-09T12:34:26.829-04:00This does not detract from your argument, but I wo...This does not detract from your argument, but I would like to point out that HS GPA has a low ceiling for conscientiousness when measured among a high-g population (SAT > 1400). I would presume that HS GPA doesn't account for much variance among the Harvard applicant pool since high g people can achieve a stellar HS GPA by only applying a minimum of effort; thus, their achievement is not aBlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-54397112085248836912012-05-09T00:33:45.988-04:002012-05-09T00:33:45.988-04:00The logic was that higher contribution from one se...The logic was that higher contribution from one set of factors (the elastic ones such as preparation, retakes, hours spent on homework) will lower the estimate of the overall contribution from the inelastic factors (luck, talent, good genetics, parents' education) and this reduction will be distributed in some fashion among the inelastic factors. For example, in a statistical model there sinerusenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-30111772147742271882012-05-08T20:49:46.630-04:002012-05-08T20:49:46.630-04:00Correct again.
I'm not trying to nail down an...Correct again.<br /><br />I'm not trying to nail down an exact figure. I'm trying to show how we might make a ballpark estimate. The reason I don't worry about the exact figure is that I'm always assuming the stats I use are off by some large degree.<br /><br />So I prefer to do the exercise more as an illustration of how we might arrive at a figure than I do worrying about the Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-50517584135790430002012-05-08T20:40:27.402-04:002012-05-08T20:40:27.402-04:00 Pincher, I really like you. I do agree my last re... Pincher, I really like you. I do agree my last response was caviling about the 2 million number when I think it is 2.8 although I am currently too lazy to search the numbers.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />However, you said: "which would make the average IQ close to 2.5 SDs above the mean."<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />No, that is the cut-off IQ, not the average IQ. The BlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-48644976290179541212012-05-08T20:05:40.383-04:002012-05-08T20:05:40.383-04:00Oh, I see what you're saying. If my numbers a...Oh, I see what you're saying. If my numbers are incorrect, I've erred on the conservative side and Harvard students are even rarer than I assumed. So either way, no big deal.Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-23985550810974134242012-05-08T19:58:00.065-04:002012-05-08T19:58:00.065-04:00"Those are 4-year institutions, and I thought...<i>"Those are 4-year institutions, and I thought only about 50% of freshman-aged students go to four-year institutions."</i><br /><br />If the freshman-aged students belong to the same age group as the incoming Harvard students, it doesn't matter what kind of learning institution they go to or whether they even go to an institution of higher learning. IQ is a relative measure Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-83941091988052276582012-05-08T19:47:01.167-04:002012-05-08T19:47:01.167-04:00 There are over 1.4 million college freshman who e... <i>There are over 1.4 million college freshman who enrolled in U.S. institutions in 2008.<br /> Some of those (less than 10%) are foreign students, but since Harvard <br />accepts foreign students, we'll assume that's a wash. Approximately 30%<br /> of Americans that age don't go to college, so there is also that to <br />factor in.<br /><br /><br />Let's assume 2 million BlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-39954435541623756222012-05-08T18:23:41.349-04:002012-05-08T18:23:41.349-04:00You seem stuck on Saint Augustine. I'm not su...You seem stuck on Saint Augustine. I'm not sure why. You can't know someone's V from a translation. Ancient theological insights couched in a literary language you are not familiar with might seem impressive only because you don't know the times and the language the author wrote in. If Augustine uses a cliché of that period that seems verbally fresh to your modern ear, becausePincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-43159530511963254392012-05-08T17:29:19.792-04:002012-05-08T17:29:19.792-04:00I think the legacies are in the top decile of inte...I think the legacies are in the top decile of intelligence; people have a reasonable chance of succeeding at that level of intelligence (and possessing self-confidence, ambition, and conscientiousness) with especially the unique connections and opportunities that Harvard affords.BlackRoseMLnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-75554266469895017302012-05-08T15:52:05.842-04:002012-05-08T15:52:05.842-04:00 I don't mind multiple objective measures to h... <i>I don't mind multiple objective measures to help narrow the field down, <br />but one still must discriminate between difficult tasks performed well <br />and easy tasks that are routinely performed by a wide range of cognitive<br /> abilities. If your standard doesn't do that, then it's of no use in <br />helping you select geniuses in a particular field.</i><br /><br />Here'Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-70991106802426442712012-05-08T14:51:29.196-04:002012-05-08T14:51:29.196-04:00"Which is why there might be multiple objecti...<i>"Which is why there might be multiple objective measures for quantifying different kinds of literary genius. Salinger may have been a genius at writing for a popular audience but a mediocrity when writing for other writers. It's kind of like comparing the Beatles to Mozart. The former is for the masses, the latter is for the elites, but both are brilliant in their own genre."<Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-76946549668152453792012-05-08T07:02:54.121-04:002012-05-08T07:02:54.121-04:00 Any objective measure we use will be somewhat arb... <i>Any objective measure we use will be somewhat arbitrary.</i><br /><br />Which is why there might be multiple objective measures for quantifying different kinds of literary genius. Salinger may have been a genius at writing for a popular audience but a mediocrity when writing for other writers. It's kind of like comparing the Beatles to Mozart. The former is for the masses, the latter Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.com