tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post1064318742365815312..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: SES and IQSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-87262783066939333922010-03-27T21:21:55.735-04:002010-03-27T21:21:55.735-04:00Good point. There wasn't as much of an SES ch...Good point. There wasn't as much of an SES change if educational (prospects) are taken into account.winatchesshttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/OCZZB7XBSHPAMQ67DGSD2OIW3Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-54406263029921146472010-03-27T08:10:35.110-04:002010-03-27T08:10:35.110-04:00My sibs and I were quite stable: one got +1 sd pre...My sibs and I were quite stable: one got +1 sd pretty consistently on standard tests, two got +2, one got +3. We all got read to on laps, lot of books in the house - SES the same. Heredity is what's left, it seems to me.dave_dot_snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-6504832068564677342010-03-27T01:10:35.041-04:002010-03-27T01:10:35.041-04:00I take issue with your concept of socioeconomic st...I take issue with your concept of socioeconomic status-SES (or what seems to be the new trendier term "socioeconomic position-SEP" ). SES/SEP is not simply a measure of income but also it should incorporate a measure of education. For example most people would consider a kid who was being raised by parents who are in a higher education type pipeline (e.g. med students, law students, galtoniannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-65404339377823968992010-03-27T00:56:46.209-04:002010-03-27T00:56:46.209-04:00Isn't SES the affinity and IQ the acuity [err,...Isn't SES the affinity and IQ the acuity [err, stabilizer]? The success function is from the space defined by the semidirect product of SES and IQ. A little weird, though, because the eigenvalues of IQ !=1, so there is some interaction between the two, and by evidence not abelian. At least that is how I think of it. Do you think that the success function is compositional SES(IQ(x)) or IQ(Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-53501324418174379142010-03-27T00:16:08.630-04:002010-03-27T00:16:08.630-04:00Found a useful reference :
The shared environment...Found a useful reference :<br /><br />The shared environmental correlation between IQ and Income is estimated at 0.14. The genetic correlation is estimated at .20.<br /><br />From Table 5 of (Rowe 1999) available at http://www.uam.es/personal_pdi/psicologia/pei/download/Rowe1999.pdfwinatchesshttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/OCZZB7XBSHPAMQ67DGSD2OIW3Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-68365408097755744252010-03-27T00:14:28.985-04:002010-03-27T00:14:28.985-04:00Hmm, possibly. I would note that studies which es...Hmm, possibly. I would note that studies which establish a small C effect (and implicitly a small SES effect) are based on how much total population variance can be explained by C.<br /><br />In contrast, there's a much smaller "pie" of variance when we're comparing sibs, because C will have no effect, and G's effect is cut in half (since they'll share half the genes).winatchesshttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/OCZZB7XBSHPAMQ67DGSD2OIW3Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-12906201178145767312010-03-27T00:13:40.470-04:002010-03-27T00:13:40.470-04:00This only works for you if the SES effect on IQ is...This only works for you if the SES effect on IQ is huge and applies when one sib has only a few years more under better SES conditions. But we know that the heritable part is > .5 of variance and that adoption/twins studies show that SES (as opposed to non-shared E) has only a small effect even when comparing two very different families. So I think your effect is tiny.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-89084573482765939642010-03-27T00:13:27.706-04:002010-03-27T00:13:27.706-04:00If SES boosts both IQ and life outcomes, then the ...If SES boosts both IQ and life outcomes, then the higher IQ sib will tend to be the one who was raised under the higher SES.<br /><br />Comparing twins reared together would mostly avoid this.winatchesshttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/OCZZB7XBSHPAMQ67DGSD2OIW3Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-86872698388118982122010-03-27T00:12:38.286-04:002010-03-27T00:12:38.286-04:00But averaged over a large sample, why would SES ch...But averaged over a large sample, why would SES changes help the high IQ kids and not the low IQ kids? <br /><br />Also, since most sibs are born within a few years of each other (the average age difference has to be 5 years or less, I would guess), it's hard to imagine most families experience a material change in SES during that period. Most sibs will experience a large overlap of SES steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-5788258519389418272010-03-27T00:05:53.255-04:002010-03-27T00:05:53.255-04:00My comments are for my amusement and for those who...My comments are for my amusement and for those who see you for what you really are:<br /><br />a not so smart man obsessed with IQ.Duns Scotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-384078718293570542010-03-27T00:05:18.451-04:002010-03-27T00:05:18.451-04:00Of course you don't get it.
Nothing "con...Of course you don't get it.<br /><br />Nothing "constructive" can be said within this "discussion" any more than something constructive may be said within a discussion about NASCAR or professional wrestling.Duns Scotusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-75487613621787405722010-03-27T00:04:10.154-04:002010-03-27T00:04:10.154-04:00I don't think balancing out matters for this m...I don't think balancing out matters for this methodological problem. The problem is that sibs vary from each other in SES, so there is no reason to believe that SES isn't (partly) responsible for the higher earnings/IQs. Here is an example w/ two families:<br /><br />Family 1 has kid 1 (adult IQ 90, annual earnings $45,000) when they are lower middle class and kid 2 (adult IQ 110, winatchesshttp://profiles.yahoo.com/u/OCZZB7XBSHPAMQ67DGSD2OIW3Qnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-64015388194767329032010-03-27T00:02:36.568-04:002010-03-27T00:02:36.568-04:00Ben I think your SES history is a rare case, so I ...Ben I think your SES history is a rare case, so I doubt it changes the overall result.<br /><br />Also, I suspect any up-down movements in SES largely average out -- for every family that gets rich in time to help the 2nd child there is a family that moves down in SES, handicapping the 2nd child relative to the first. In any case, why would this effect make high IQ kids systematically more steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-71963338617156395072010-03-27T00:00:19.022-04:002010-03-27T00:00:19.022-04:00testing new comment system...testing new comment system...steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-8426763498065887132010-03-25T18:17:07.349-04:002010-03-25T18:17:07.349-04:00Perhaps it will help if I clarify what I'm tal...Perhaps it will help if I clarify what I'm talking about with a sib design not controlling for parental SES.<br /><br />My parents were of low income when they raised my older brothers, but rather well off by the time I was raised. It's not reasonable to say that my brothers and I had the same SES.<br /><br />"Do you have a plausible model"<br /><br />I don't have a ben ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04802090467106119091noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-9678788440035629282010-03-25T17:48:39.617-04:002010-03-25T17:48:39.617-04:00Anon / Hendrik,
It's been a long time since y...Anon / Hendrik,<br /><br />It's been a long time since you've added anything constructive to the discussion here. I don't get the sense that other commenters are interested in your opinions. Also, your latest anti-semitic comment re: Sergey Brin is not appreciated. <br /><br />Any more of this and you will be banned from further comments on this blog.Steve Hsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72904663018833718402010-03-25T16:47:43.043-04:002010-03-25T16:47:43.043-04:00Steve claims that he does not reify IQ yet he here...Steve claims that he does not reify IQ yet he here claims IQ is a cause. How can something which is not a real thing be a cause?<br /><br />Perhaps Steve does not know what "reify" means.Ian Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06837467954881003505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-58853299913553885992010-03-25T16:44:23.893-04:002010-03-25T16:44:23.893-04:00"It is sometimes claimed..."
By whom?
..."It is sometimes claimed..."<br /><br />By whom?<br /><br />"We all know..."<br /><br />Who is "we"?<br /><br />"only decreases slightly..."<br /><br />that is from one trivial correlation to an even more trivial one<br /><br />"SES does not predict college success, SAT does..."<br /><br />What is "college success"? Once again Steve Ian Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06837467954881003505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-81218500726899411142010-03-25T16:23:53.125-04:002010-03-25T16:23:53.125-04:00By SES I mean the childhood SES experienced by bot...By SES I mean the childhood SES experienced by both siblings. So, yes, it's controlled.<br /><br />Do you have a plausible model that explains the data but in which IQ is not related to the life outcomes? Your model has to have factors that <br /><br />1. vary among siblings <br />2. are correlated with IQ <br />3. but somehow are not IQ, and yet cause differences in educational achievement, Steve Hsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-80742897969702677862010-03-25T16:00:58.599-04:002010-03-25T16:00:58.599-04:00I see two problems with this study design:
1. Is ...I see two problems with this study design:<br /><br />1. Is SES actually controlled? If siblings are being compared, as opposed to twins, then SES will differ between them. Also, it's not even clear that twins will have the same SES, because they may live in different neighborhoods if for example the parents are divorced.<br /><br />2. Even if SES is controlled for, it is not clear that IQ ben ghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04802090467106119091noreply@blogger.com