tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post7645844211445555107..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: Gopnik and Pinker on DarwinSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-31134120429059357002011-12-21T13:53:09.547-05:002011-12-21T13:53:09.547-05:00 Steve, how exactly would you define a hig... Steve, how exactly would you define a high V, low M? For instance, in the SMPY study, their top .01% high verbal kids were in the top .5% of math ability. E.O. Wilson has said on some occasion that he's got modest mathematical ability, but he's an eminent biologist. His latest work had caused quite a stir, but like, it's done with a mathematical biologist. <br /><br />http://darklayersifynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-74122747710412989472011-07-09T10:56:15.931-04:002011-07-09T10:56:15.931-04:00In essence, formal rigor protects against internal...In essence, formal rigor protects against internally inconsistent reasoning or "procedural mistakes". It doesn't protect you against (consistently) processing flawed information or relying on incomplete models and thus arriving at wrong conclusions with respect to the Real World. In fact, if you are careless, being adept in M may leave you with a nasty bias along the lines "I silkophttp://cleeray.myopenid.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-58723924580280126542011-07-07T07:23:16.931-04:002011-07-07T07:23:16.931-04:00DOJ also ought to note that V scores on the GRE fo...DOJ also ought to note that V scores on the GRE for native English speakers are significantly inflated due to the large number of foreign test-takers. Also, graduate degree holders are becoming stupider with time (http://inductivist.blogspot.com/2010/12/mean-iq-of-americans-with-advanced.html). <br /><br />Further, the high-V low-Q split really boils down to the ability to think statistically. I Dawg_from_Hell 2010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-2776881444633792902011-07-07T02:42:06.882-04:002011-07-07T02:42:06.882-04:00Why you guys consider Gopnik an high V ?
because ...Why you guys consider Gopnik an high V ?<br /><br />because he is verbaly fluent and invokes sophisticate concept ?<br /><br />Your definition of high V seems to not demand good logic and deep understanding.<br /><br />should someone who is able to fill up quickly a board with equation full of little mistake be consider a high M ?<br /><br />and even if he can appear brillant to somme ?<br /><br Michelhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_LQN2OC6555NOAUIBLBGROZG26Unoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-55122977641248279502011-07-06T03:46:13.342-04:002011-07-06T03:46:13.342-04:00Be careful: 99th percentile *among GRE test takers...Be careful: 99th percentile *among GRE test takers* is not the same thing as 99th percentile in the overall US or world population.<br /><br />Unfortunately, one can exhibit high-V low-Q pathologies even with quantitative ability noticeably above the population mean.Christopher Changhttp://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=723726480noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-61186034045360466072011-07-06T00:53:37.851-04:002011-07-06T00:53:37.851-04:00I was sure Gopnik is trying to parody the guy in t...I was sure Gopnik is trying to parody the guy in this video:<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6xJzAYYrX8<br />(first appearance at 3:05 and more at 8:00). Pinker's patience is enviable! Nano Nymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-77506397354064640352011-07-06T00:13:31.227-04:002011-07-06T00:13:31.227-04:00Not nearly as bad as your paper on Ashkenazi IQ He...Not nearly as bad as your paper on Ashkenazi IQ Henry and your making the very prole height g analogy.MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-55861335919123165512011-07-05T23:10:19.560-04:002011-07-05T23:10:19.560-04:00Touche...
However, I still do think that the Brit...Touche...<br /><br />However, I still do think that the British and Continental elites of a century or so ago were probably quite a bit more knowledgeable and respectful of the natural sciences than their Chinese opposite numbers, especially given the wealth and political influence of the early industrialists.<br /><br />As an example on the other side, I think I remember once reading long ago RKU1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-15382732297080364742011-07-05T22:34:28.872-04:002011-07-05T22:34:28.872-04:00Good thing RKU didn't also try to predict the ...Good thing RKU didn't also try to predict the future development of China.Yan Shenhttp://profiles.google.com/yanshen71786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-52223852681243343682011-07-05T22:26:48.501-04:002011-07-05T22:26:48.501-04:00RKU1,
"As an additional datapoint, my impres...RKU1,<br /><br /><i>"As an additional datapoint, my impression is that back a century or more ago the overwhelming majority of China's political elites were the local equivalent of lawyers..."</i>And how would that have made the Chinese any different from the leadership class in the U.S. and Great Britain a century ago? Are you under the mistaken impression that those two countriesPincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-11260817680340623622011-07-05T22:14:02.812-04:002011-07-05T22:14:02.812-04:00And of course Pinker did nothing to disabuse Gopni...And of course Pinker did nothing to disabuse Gopnik of his misconception. In fact, Pinker was all too ready to follow Gopnik's lead in allowing that nearly all the political prejudices of modern-day liberalism are entirely in sync with Darwinism.Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-15887666888831912592011-07-05T21:42:47.268-04:002011-07-05T21:42:47.268-04:00Good Lord Steve this was a cruel thing to impose o...Good Lord Steve this was a cruel thing to impose on your loyal readers. "In a certain sense," up is down, right is left, and true is false!Henry Harpendinghttp://profiles.google.com/harpendnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-39732453131495995172011-07-05T21:41:04.324-04:002011-07-05T21:41:04.324-04:00I think we have to be careful by how we define hig...I think we have to be careful by how we define high-V low-Q people. First we have to understand the tilt towards verbal ability. Suppose a verbal GRE score of 740 places one into the 99th percentile for verbal ability. We can calculate the z-score, which determines how many standard deviations one tests above the verbal mean, as 2.35 SD, if we suppose the mean verbal score is 465 and the Lover of Wisdomhttp://carrefoursagesse.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-60453985083339603252011-07-05T18:34:17.212-04:002011-07-05T18:34:17.212-04:00That was my impression from reading The Blank Slat...That was my impression from reading The Blank Slate, where he would often get carried away with his own train of thoughts, without asking himself whether what he was saying was a. true, or b. pertinent. (although I did like the book).Fred23noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-49536638494779507792011-07-05T16:57:41.689-04:002011-07-05T16:57:41.689-04:00Gopnik seemed not to grasp that Pinker, with his &...Gopnik seemed not to grasp that Pinker, with his "small quantitative differences" between groups, was leaving the door open for everything Gopnik is sure just *cannot* be true.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-2352821604744597172011-07-05T15:12:51.350-04:002011-07-05T15:12:51.350-04:00Most radical (for some) is the thought that indivi...Most radical (for some) is the thought that individuals differ not only individually in part because of genetics but also at the group level. <br /><br />I'm probably just 1 SD over the average White IQ; in other words, I am not that smart, and evolution, selection, etc., it all makes perfect sense to me. If it's explained by complex math it's like Hieroglyphs though so I will never Sam Hhttp://profiles.google.com/samh550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-54325164471184997502011-07-05T15:06:51.756-04:002011-07-05T15:06:51.756-04:00Do you propose that it only matters if M is low re...Do you propose that it only matters if M is low relative to V? For example suppose someone is in the 99th percentile V but 85th percentile M, so the V type of thinking dominates their thoughts. Now what if someone is 85th percentile M but 70th percentile V. Clearly the former person is more intelligent but their mind is tilted differently. Sam Hhttp://profiles.google.com/samh550noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-14500717710995708262011-07-05T12:58:17.653-04:002011-07-05T12:58:17.653-04:00I think the overwhelming majority of China's p...I think the overwhelming majority of China's political elites come from an engineering background and a similarly overwhelming share of America's political elites are lawyers by training. The huge difference in the current economic growth rates between those two countries may or may not be connected with this.<br /><br />As an additional datapoint, my impression is that back a century orRKU1noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-24391083043438627402011-07-05T04:11:52.618-04:002011-07-05T04:11:52.618-04:00Steve says:
"The worst is probably legal/hum...Steve says:<br /><br />"The worst is probably legal/humanistic training in *how to make arguments* without any emphasis on actually finding the truth or what constitutes a decent epistemology."<br /><br />One problem is that the law is all about figuring out "bright line" distinctions that don't happen all that much in nature.Stevehttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UJDYBGSS6KHCMUU2RCLMMXDEF4noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-31043404693528819882011-07-05T02:48:49.560-04:002011-07-05T02:48:49.560-04:00"I'm not saying ..." Whatever you en..."I'm not saying ..." Whatever you end up saying my "model" tells me it will flatter you.<br /><br />"For example...communism..." Bad example.<br /><br />"However, at least a math person knows faulty logic when he or she sees it." You don't!MtMorunoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-1655451963603101242011-07-05T02:28:57.122-04:002011-07-05T02:28:57.122-04:00I'm not saying math ability protects completel...I'm not saying math ability protects completely against nonsense beliefs. For example, there were many good mathematicians and scientists who believed in communism as an economic system. However, at least a math person knows faulty logic when he or she sees it. And a (good) scientist should have a nose for whether a particular model fits the evidence or not ...steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-54457837696407562712011-07-05T02:24:49.886-04:002011-07-05T02:24:49.886-04:00You might be right. I can think of numerous examp...You might be right. I can think of numerous examples of mathematically competent people who embrace nonsense on this and other issues - but maybe they do better on average than the non-mathematical types. Then again, maybe mathematical and legal/humanistic training are only sorting people by personality, rather than changing them.gcochrannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-18461932039148185052011-07-05T02:05:09.855-04:002011-07-05T02:05:09.855-04:00I find it painful listening to Gopnik. He never s...I find it painful listening to Gopnik. He never says five words when he can say fifty instead.Pincherhttp://pulse.yahoo.com/_UT3LO7CZPSAS423TUTB2QMMDCEnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-90378307704807090352011-07-05T01:58:54.756-04:002011-07-05T01:58:54.756-04:00I think mathematical reasoning forces you to be lo...I think mathematical reasoning forces you to be logical and apply rules in a consistent way. If you're only used to the kind of sloppy verbal reasoning used in some areas it is much easier to bend evidence according to your biases. (Gopnik seems able to read whatever he likes into Darwin's writing!) Even better is actual scientific training which teaches you how to build models and steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-19208963434014846152011-07-05T01:50:33.392-04:002011-07-05T01:50:33.392-04:00 I don't think you need a lot of mathema... I don't think you need a lot of mathematical ability to notice significant cognitive differences between populations. Henry Harpending tells me that the Herero occasionally discuss ''why Europeans are more intelligent than Africans.', as a question that as well known and obvious to everyone. They haven't figured out the answer yet, but I bet they get there before gcochrannoreply@blogger.com