tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post3655610693765299236..comments2024-01-13T18:57:18.243-05:00Comments on Information Processing: Personnel Selection: horsepower mattersSteve Hsuhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02428333897272913660noreply@blogger.comBlogger33125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-3057650945614184932012-02-09T17:24:07.289-05:002012-02-09T17:24:07.289-05:00Yes, I think originally we were thinking of an Ivy...Yes, I think originally we were thinking of an Ivy undergrad (academic admit), say in top quarter of their class.<br /><br />I agree with your rough estimates but keep in mind that I doubt g can be defined/measured to much better accuracy than 1 population SD.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-86543341289735811032012-02-09T16:30:56.567-05:002012-02-09T16:30:56.567-05:00This is so confused... you are commenting on a pos...This is so confused... you are commenting on a post entirely dedicated to showing that the test DOES work, aka that it is a good meritocratic tool. Your argument seems to be that "well, big bad ____ could abuse this to discriminate", but if the SAT is primarily a test of G, big bad ___ can't do much nefarious with it. <br />If, for instance, instead of the SAT we had a perfect magictractalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-22793732597829829632012-02-09T10:03:59.519-05:002012-02-09T10:03:59.519-05:00Silkop:
saying that the argument is "not abo...Silkop:<br /><br />saying that the argument is "not about whether actually work or not" is sort of like saying that in a basketball game, the outcome of the game is not about whether making free throws at the end matters or not.<br /><br />The ability of the tests to identify who has the most intellectual firepower is the sine qua non of the issue. If the tests are useful in sorting dwbuddhttp://twitter.com/dwbuddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-40415816055892799722012-02-08T14:41:04.445-05:002012-02-08T14:41:04.445-05:00If you wish to limit access to certain positions i...If you wish to limit access to certain positions in society, which is always helpful for staying in political power, you can create all sorts of barriers as an aid. One of such barriers in today's world is having higher education, preferably a degree from a renowned university (as is often enough pointed out on this blog). So how do you prevent "unwanted" people from getting this silkophttp://cleeray.myopenid.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72731974006716001082012-02-08T00:39:31.438-05:002012-02-08T00:39:31.438-05:00Been browsing through the archives. "Individu...Been browsing through the archives. "Individual is a smart, conscientious, driven kid with Tier 1 credentials. But no superpowers ;-)" Are we talking about Ivy League undergrad in hard science? Is this breakdown right for your IQ-ability estimate?<br />+2SD Tier one science undergrad/medical/law school, mid-tier physics phd<br />+3SD Tier one physics phd<br />+4SD supermenohumadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-83189694951041186562012-02-07T15:02:14.079-05:002012-02-07T15:02:14.079-05:00We're not reverting back to Nazi Germany, or e...We're not reverting back to Nazi Germany, or even cartoonish Illinois Nazism of the sort seen in "The Blues Brothers." I'd point out Godwin, but presume most people here know of it almost implicitly.<br /><br />The spectre of IQ testing and eugenics is a century old, and I would guess is what Silkop is reacting to. The whole concept of 'g' as envisioned by the creatorsdwbuddhttp://twitter.com/dwbuddnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-27932100183519841312012-02-06T18:39:26.747-05:002012-02-06T18:39:26.747-05:00With the football recruits, injuries add a lot of ...With the football recruits, injuries add a lot of random noise to the outcomes, so there would probably be an even stronger correlation if players didn't suffer so many major injuries. On the other hand, in most safer sports, I don't think correlations between high school stardom and college stardom are quite as high. Football is dominated by guys who are big, strong, and fast, which is Steve Sailernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-86963200832574468092012-02-06T15:16:20.998-05:002012-02-06T15:16:20.998-05:00 Liberals like to fan the flames of paranoia by su... Liberals like to fan the flames of paranoia by suggesting that psychometric results can be used for insidious ends. However, as far as I can tell, most of these results today are used to identify gifted and talented youth. I've yet to see anything in this country today that suggests we're reverting back to Nazi Germany, where those identified as undesirable are forcibly sterilized or Yan Shenhttp://profiles.google.com/yanshen71786noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-28801133758402270652012-02-06T14:10:17.442-05:002012-02-06T14:10:17.442-05:00I don't think your views are simplistic, I jus...I don't think your views are simplistic, I just remark on facts (your apparent and persistent lack of commentary on ethical ramifications of improving tests that serve to categorize people; combined with drumming about racial prejudices and social injustice in other posts) and also on how you come across through your blog to one casual reader. If you were reading your own posts without any silkophttp://cleeray.myopenid.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-12605359954363688082012-02-05T20:06:10.136-05:002012-02-05T20:06:10.136-05:00"This is the kind of BS promulgated by (suppo..."This is the kind of BS promulgated by (supposedly) high g types who are <br />outside of science and academia. The stuff in the Caltech curriculum is <br />plenty g loaded and high ceiling to distinguish 99.9th from 99th <br />percentile. You have to be > 99.9 to have a shot of grasping advanced<br /> topics in pure math and physics while an undergrad. Kids who are >99<br /> but belowIamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-58867387336330109272012-02-05T19:59:55.981-05:002012-02-05T19:59:55.981-05:00I don't disagree. I just think that elite sch...I don't disagree. I just think that elite schools conjure idiopathic HR mojos when they construct their student body. I don't even have a say about what is right or wrong because I can't invert their admissions to figure out what they are actually trying to do.David Coughlinhttp://twitter.com/dscoughlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-6417819829356709542012-02-05T19:51:38.683-05:002012-02-05T19:51:38.683-05:00"But it's also plausible the 99.99 percen..."But it's also plausible the 99.99 percentile SAT scores was far more likely to get them into somewhere like Harvard which arguably changed the trajectory of their lives. Would Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Barack Obama all be as successful as they are today if they hadn't attended Harvard? Probably not. Now perhaps the study could statistically control for this effect with the tractalnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-11141133220398907532012-02-05T19:12:51.378-05:002012-02-05T19:12:51.378-05:00> which arguably changed the trajectory of thei...> which arguably changed the trajectory of their lives <<br /><br />In the old days (pre-finance and startup economy) controlling for SAT score eliminated almost all of the earnings advantage of attending HYPS as opposed to a state university. In other words, Ohio State grad with Harvard admit SAT scores earned about as much as Harvard grad. The situation more recently is hotly debated by steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-89737321811594185072012-02-05T18:54:10.749-05:002012-02-05T18:54:10.749-05:00"SMPY has subpopulations that are 99th percen..."SMPY has subpopulations that are 99th percentile and 99.99 percentile <br />and you can see huge qualitative differences in their life outcomes. All<br /> these kids come from good families, were in gifted programs, etc. So <br />it's plausible that the main difference between the quartiles is simply <br />ability as measured by SAT score at age 13."<br /><br />But it's also Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-83211980427003368032012-02-05T18:35:16.429-05:002012-02-05T18:35:16.429-05:00"Even among people who got into same prestigi..."Even among people who got into same prestigious schools such as Duke, <br />people who scored higher in SAT will generally have high GPA and will be<br /> more successful."<br /><br />Well I would love to see is a study examining the relationship between SAT/IQ and future income/future wealth among people with the same major at the same Ivy league school. Of course such a study would Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-59277465815484161092012-02-05T17:47:05.214-05:002012-02-05T17:47:05.214-05:00"It's far more interesting if smart peopl..."It's far more interesting if smart people get to the top naturally instead of because they were pre-selected by test scores."<br /><br />You're going off to some wild tangents here. Sadly, there are ample evidences that shows otherwise. Even among people who got into same prestigious schools such as Duke, people who scored higher in SAT will generally have high GPA and will Ju Hyung Ahnhttp://juhyungahn.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72644265389583177692012-02-05T17:42:11.796-05:002012-02-05T17:42:11.796-05:00Causality is tricky and one could always claim tha...Causality is tricky and one could always claim that since we have a credentials-based system and are already sorting people by IQ/SAT from an early age that it's all self-fulfilling, blah, blah. <br /><br />SMPY has subpopulations that are 99th percentile and 99.99 percentile and you can see huge qualitative differences in their life outcomes. All these kids come from good families, were in steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-8146936475512454532012-02-05T17:33:54.008-05:002012-02-05T17:33:54.008-05:00There are plots for other majors in our earlier pa...There are plots for other majors in our earlier paper Data Mining the University (search on blog to find a link). You can see at a glance they look very different.<br /><br />The blue bin sizes were varied near the threshold of 600 to get more resolution on what was happening, and some of the choices overlapped.<br /><br />Nothing wrong with grinders, but keep in mind this is undergrad data so steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-72503454483437059832012-02-05T17:28:26.188-05:002012-02-05T17:28:26.188-05:00"There are almost certainly many millionaires..."There are almost certainly many millionaires in this population. Quite a few with incomes above $500k per annum, as I recall"<br /><br />If people with +3 SD SAT scores make more money than people with +2 SD SAT scores, then that's strong evidence that the SAT is a good proxy for overall intelligence at even the highest levels instead of just narrow book smarts as critics contend, Iamexpertnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-44912573336462359072012-02-05T17:24:18.700-05:002012-02-05T17:24:18.700-05:00Well, since 1 in 10,000 was only SAT-M score of on...Well, since 1 in 10,000 was only SAT-M score of only 702 (which is somewhat surprising), students are allowed to make some mistakes here.Ju Hyung Ahnhttp://juhyungahn.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-11280973629552366782012-02-05T17:18:46.098-05:002012-02-05T17:18:46.098-05:00Thanks Steve,
I looked at the blue bars and saw ...Thanks Steve,<br /> <br />I looked at the blue bars and saw an S curve. Why are the bin sizes not all the same and why is there some overlap of the bins in the center of the range? I see "(Bin sizes were varied in an effort to keep similar total numbers in each bin, although this was not possible for the lowest and highest scoring bins.)" that doesn't explain the bin overlap thoughBobdisqusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-50997906873477051032012-02-05T16:57:51.988-05:002012-02-05T16:57:51.988-05:00The data we had was for the general CS major at Or...The data we had was for the general CS major at Oregon. If you could narrow it down to theoretical CS (which is basically math), I'm sure you'd detect a cognitive threshold.steve hsuhttp://duende.uoregon.edu/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-53491547387123476172012-02-05T16:52:48.832-05:002012-02-05T16:52:48.832-05:00Well, the above article narrows down the jobs in s...Well, the above article narrows down the jobs in scope to STEM fields.<br /><br />According to Steve Hsu, SAT threshold wasn't even found in the field of <br />undergraduate computer science, which is generally considered to be a <br />tough major. Thus, barring physics & mathematics (and maybe EE) <br />majors, students' hard work is going to pay off at the undergraduate <br />levelJu Hyung Ahnhttp://juhyungahn.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-37697991769843546022012-02-05T16:50:00.342-05:002012-02-05T16:50:00.342-05:00Well, the above article narrows down the jobs in s...Well, the above article narrows down the jobs in scope to STEM fields.<br />According to Steve Hsu, SAT threshold wasn't even found in the field of undergraduate computer science, which is generally considered to be a tough major. Thus, barring physics & mathematics (and maybe EE) majors, students' hard work is going to pay off at the undergraduate level of studies, and a Ju Hyung Ahnhttp://juhyungahn.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5880610.post-23849473909914844972012-02-05T15:59:09.486-05:002012-02-05T15:59:09.486-05:00The interesting thing about the Mathematically Pre...The interesting thing about the Mathematically Precocious Youth study is that it shows the SAT actually can discriminate at the upper end, at least when the ceiling is set very very high. The ceiling is a lot lower for high school juniors--about 1% or so make 800 on the math section. At that point random miscalculations, careless errors, or study time/high school curriculum might be expected to tractalnoreply@blogger.com